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Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law (Pledge Banned in Madison, WI Schools)
Wisconsin State Journal ^ | 10/8/01 | Doug Erickson Education reporter

Posted on 10/09/2001 7:02:25 AM PDT by Jean S

Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law, schools told

The Madison School Board barred schools on Monday from using the Pledge of Allegiance as a way to comply with a new state law that requires a daily patriotism dose.

Instead, schools can use only the national anthem - and then only instrumental versions of it. No words.

The 3-2 board vote came after several parents and teachers complained that the pledge, which contains the line "one nation, under God," is a religious oath that doesn't belong in public schools. Others criticized the pledge for promoting nationalism and militarism.

Board President Calvin Williams, who voted with the majority, said the board's action is the "least intrusive and least offensive" way to comply with the law.

"We've chosen a reasonable compromise that preserves freedom of expression on both ends of the spectrum and doesn't trample on anyone's rights," he said.

The law, which took effect Sept. 1, requires schools to offer the pledge or anthem daily in grades 1 to 12. Madison implemented the law last week, with Superintendent Art Rainwater leaving it up to each school to decide whether the pledge or anthem would be offered and in what format.

The heaviest criticism has been aimed at those elementary schools where the pledge is being read over the public address system. Although the law says students cannot be forced to participate, critics said children have little choice but to listen to it when it's broadcast throughout the school.

"What we're doing here is opening up a very slippery slope," said Sally Franz, an educational assistant at Cherokee Middle School and one of six people who criticized the law Monday. "Indoctrination leads to totalitarianism, and we're approaching that moment."

Board member Bill Keys' motion instructs schools to broadcast an instrumental version of the anthem at a time deemed appropriate by administrators. This option will allow dissenting students to opt out less conspicuously, reducing the chances for harassment, he said.

Williams and Carol Carstensen agreed with Keys. Carstensen said the motion in no way prohibits the teaching of the pledge for educational reasons or the singing of the anthem in music class. And students can say the pledge on their own during the school day, she said.

Ruth Robarts and Shwaw Vang opposed the motion, with both saying it doesn't go far enough to protect the rights of dissenters. "It's a step in the right direction, but it doesn't remove the coerciveness of the classroom situation," Robarts said. She wanted the anthem to be offered before or after classes.

Ray Allen and Juan Jose Lopez were absent. Reached later, Lopez said he opposes the motion.

"I would not have voted to ban the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "We live in the United States of America, and people should be given the choice."


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
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Comment #181 Removed by Moderator

To: Twodees
It's intellectual snobbery in that the majority of American citizens say the pledge of allegiance to the United States of America with great joy and pride. Then along comes a person who claims a better understanding of the founding fathers and wants to get rid of what the majority is content with. If you read my first post, I indicated that this sort of discourse was more appropriate in a college or university setting... not in K-12.

I borrowed the phrase "psuedo intellectual snob" from a professor of Medicine at UCSD. He used that title to describe people who try to upset the apple cart with their own special insights and views. I thought it was a very fitting title.
182 posted on 10/09/2001 6:37:36 PM PDT by Sweet Hour of Prayer
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To: JeanS
Typical Peoples' Republik of Madtown Disease garbage. Guess they're too busy indoctrinating the young skulls of mush into believing that Communism wasn't so bad, that anyone to the right of Che Guevera is pure evil, and that unless we go back to the 2nd Century, complete with persecution of Christians (as well as Jews and Americans who dare not be ashamed of being American) we're all going to die crispy critters, to allow any mention of the fact that they're in the United States of America "poison" said skulls of mush.
183 posted on 10/09/2001 6:50:25 PM PDT by steveegg
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To: NTNgod
I'm a UWM grad, so being PC was always built into the atmosphere and curriculum. And we have always been the perrenial sports threat (the Panthers - even sounds wussy).
184 posted on 10/09/2001 6:54:58 PM PDT by brewcrew
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To: Twodees
Sorry for the delay in response, I popped a couple tops and was taking a break. As to your statement..........This might surprise you but I totally agree. You need to read the tread of argument beginning with the outlandish statements. One of these guys said yesterday in response to a statement about the large sacrifice during Nam that "they did not have to go did they". I was not defending ignorance. I'll leave that to the educators of today. I was defending The pledge. The pledge means a lot to me. Almost as much as the flag.
185 posted on 10/09/2001 7:56:28 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: LLAN-DDEUSANT
(!)
186 posted on 10/09/2001 7:59:39 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: Sweet Hour of Prayer
Two hundred and twenty six years ago there was a small group of us "psuedo-intellectual snobs" who did indeed upset the apple cart -- thank G-d for them.

Are you really such a Tory? G-d Save the King, and pledge to him then. Any human monarch would appreciate your easy fealty.

187 posted on 10/09/2001 8:18:08 PM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw
Snob : one who tends to rebuff, avoid or ignore those he regards as inferior. b: one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste.
188 posted on 10/09/2001 8:32:55 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: Teacher317
Humble apologies offered for assuming incorrectly, Teacher317. Truly. Obviously I crossed wires and mistook you for someone else. In the future I'll be *very* sure not to make such a mistake again.

You've got FReepmail.

189 posted on 10/09/2001 8:44:28 PM PDT by homeschool mama
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To: wirestripper
Count the Founders as snobs then! They were uncommon men, and had a great distain for the common Tory and neutral.
190 posted on 10/09/2001 8:57:12 PM PDT by bvw
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To: brewcrew
So, you have voted to ban the pledge of allegiance in your schools. This will not stand. You need to change your decision before the rest of America comes down smack, dab in the middle of your business.

FReeped them good. Did any one call them? Let keep this thread bumped and we have to keep freeping them. We will win!

191 posted on 10/09/2001 9:11:12 PM PDT by TLBSHOW
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To: UB355
sent an e-mail tonight ... thanks(:^>
192 posted on 10/09/2001 9:16:28 PM PDT by Bob Evans
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To: homeschool mama
Apology accepted and returned. Today was not a happy day in classes, and the first post I saw addressed to me was yours... just bad timing, which caused me to react emotionally. I'm sorry too.

(And I REALLY wish I could find that old thread... a real soul-searcher!)

193 posted on 10/09/2001 9:17:45 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: JeanS
Out of curiosity, what objections would these bureaucRATS [nb: the original subliminal RATS usage, though DemocRATS works well too] have to the pre-1950's version of the Pledge of Allegiance? I'm sure they'd come up with something--I'm just curious what.
194 posted on 10/09/2001 9:26:04 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Russ
"I'm a member of our local school board and if we were to introduce a motion like that we'd be run out of town!"

Unbelievable! I might have expected something like that on either seaboard where the Lotus eaters live, but it is hard to accept that once solidly patriotic middle America is riddled with Leftists or (just as bad) "wusses." Time for a RECALL, folks! Tomorrow won't be too soon.

195 posted on 10/09/2001 9:29:19 PM PDT by MI_too
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To: bvw
You are refering to a era when aristocracy was much more in control than it is now. However it can be argued that they are still pulling the levers. But to get on with it, what is your point? From what I have read you say that patriotism is phony unless it is practiced your way. I find that argument lacking. There are many people who died for your freedoms who would not view your opinions as intelligent or informed yet you think you have the answers.To downgrade the pledge on the basis of some intellectual garbage is purely a lack of judgement on your part. Is it because the word God is mentioned?
196 posted on 10/09/2001 9:37:18 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: bvw
I forgot to mention something in my last reply to you. Your take on socialism really astounds me. You appear to think that socialism=some sort of government control over thought. You are wrong about that. That principle could be a dictatorship or perhaps communism or some other but not socialism. Socialism has more to do with ownership of private property and government control of the distribution of goods and services. Some call it a transition to communism but there is no thought control element to it.
197 posted on 10/09/2001 9:55:10 PM PDT by Cold Heat
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To: JeanS
I spent my adult life in public education, and today I learned something BIG! It is perfectly legal to teach about religion in public school! Or maybe those morons in Madison have a problem with loyalty to the United States of America rather than with religion, per se. I received Chuck Colson's daily essay, Breakpoint, today, addressing just the issue of religion in school. I don't think he would mind my paraphrasing part of it:

Mr. Colson quotes author Eric Buehrer, who wrote an article entitled, "Integrating Faith and the Public Schools Without Mixing Church and State." Buehrer says that teaching students about Christianity and its positive influence on American culture is legal and it is a legitimate academic pursuit for public schools.

Colson notes that Buehrer points to an actual handbook published by the California State Board of Education in 1995 on teaching about religion in the schools. This direct quote was cited:

"School personnel are obliged to help students develop an informal understanding and appreciation of the role of religion in the lives of Americans and people of other nations."

The handbook continues, "Study about religion in America is fundamental to understanding and appreciating the American heritage. America is a land of many races, cultures, languages, and religions. Students should learn about the contributions of religion to America."

The rationale apparently rests on the fact that history does not consist of simply recording events, but of gaining insight into the motivation of the people involved in the historical events. Thus, a state as liberal as Massachusetts can and does accept the legitimacy of instructing students about Christianity, as illustrated by that state's standards for social studies for middle school students, in which they suggest students should discuss how ideas of figures such as Moses and Jesus might motivate entire nations to action!

This is a direct quote from Mr. Colson, who invites teachers and parents to learn more about how to reintroduce such information back into the world of public schools:

"Teachers should have no doubt that teaching students about the importance of Christianity is academically appropriate. You can help teachers in your church, and in your children's and grandchildren's schools, to have the confidence to do this by reminding them that education about the role of Christianity is legal, and it's logical. Contact us here at BreakPoint and we'll send you a copy of Eric Buehrer's article, "Integrating Faith and the Public Schools Without Mixing Church and State," along with some other materials that will help you make the case."

He invites inquiries because "Students need to be taught the historical and social importance of the Christian faith, and strange as it may seem, school officials from California to Massachusetts agree."

=================
The essay concludes with this tip: "You can get a copy of Buehrer's article at http://www.breakpoint.org "

"'BreakPoint with Chuck Colson' is a daily commentary on news and trends from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 1000 radio outlets nationwide, BreakPoint transcripts are also available on the Internet.

Copyright (c) 2001 Prison Fellowship Ministries."

I suggest that you ask for Breakpoint to be e-mailed to you daily, as long as you are at that site. Colson's essays are invariably cogent and inspiring, and cover a wide ranging variety of issues. You won't be sorry you subscribed.

Now, then Wisconsinites, GO FOR IT! I expect to read next week that the Board of Education in Madison has been recalled and that the Pledge of Allegiance has been reinstated. If you can't do that, hang your heads in shame.

198 posted on 10/09/2001 10:07:43 PM PDT by MI_too
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Comment #199 Removed by Moderator

To: winna
BUMP
200 posted on 10/09/2001 10:34:24 PM PDT by oioiman
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