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Grumblings beginning to be heard in France on US
AFP ^ | 10/8/2001 | AFP

Posted on 10/08/2001 5:51:16 AM PDT by l33t

PARIS, Oct 8 (AFP) -

France's commitment to the US-led attacks on Afghanistan prompted grumbling Monday within the ruling left-wing majority, with Green and Communist deputies urging the government to keep its distance from Washington.

The most vehement criticism came from Noel Mamere, a Green deputy and a likely candidate for next April's presidential elections, who said the strikes amounted to an "act of war" against the Afghan people.

"The military response launched by the Americans is an act of war against the Afghan people, a people who risk paying a high price for international terrorism," Mamere said.

"This riposte runs the risk of being disproportionate," he added. "George W. Bush is well and truly his father's son." Bush's father, former president George Bush ordered US-led attacks against Iraq in the 1991 Gulf War.

The Communist Party, another junior partner in the Socialist-led coalition, also urged caution on the government.

"France must not appear to be a simple appendix of the United States which makes decisions for the entire world," Communist deputy Jean-Pierre Brard said. He called for an emergency debate in the National Assembly on France's role in the conflict.

Meanwhile Socialist Party spokesman Vincent Peillon said parliament would be consulted in the coming days on French participation to the US-led strikes, thoguh he said it had not been decided whether to put a motion to the vote.

"We consider these strikes to be legitimate and we back them. It would be a grave error to consider that these strikes are aimed at the Afghan people," he said, referring to Mamere's comments which he described as "curious and confused".

Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine and Defense Minister Alain Richard were due to appear Tuesday before the assembly's defense and foreign affairs committees to outline France's involvement in the military operation.

The interior ministry announced Monday that French intelligence agents were already on the ground in Afghanistan working with the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance.

"The US knows that we can join in the action with dozens of planes or boats and thousands of men, to participate in operations on terrorist targets in Afghanistan. It's a matter of days," Richard told Le Monde newspaper.

The strikes that began Sunday are in response to the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States that killed nearly 5,500 people. Bin Laden has been accused of organizing the attacks.

President Jacques Chirac gave his full-hearted support for the US attack in a nationally televised address Sunday and said French forces would take part.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
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To: austinTparty
bump!
81 posted on 10/08/2001 9:02:06 AM PDT by FFIGHTER
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To: PatrioticAmerican,to_hell_with_whos_fighting_I_will_hate_who_i_like
I guess the fact that French boys are already in country along side American and Bristish doesnt amount to a mess of beans
82 posted on 10/08/2001 9:02:16 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: alarm rider,they_may_be_fighting_with_our_boys_so_what
Bloody French President how dare he have some of his boys in country.

Tony

83 posted on 10/08/2001 9:05:12 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: Lumberjack
Are you going to write to the French President and ask hin to remove those troops he has already sent to Afganistan, to fight along side our lads.
84 posted on 10/08/2001 9:07:55 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: tonycavanagh
I've always suspected you to be a man of intelligence and discernment, Tony. Thanks for the confirmation. :-)

The Green/Communist coalition speaks with the assurance that their butts will be saved by the rest of the world and their own special forces. Hell, they're probably even against "Vigipirate" (the French domestic anti-terrorism operation)...

85 posted on 10/08/2001 9:23:04 AM PDT by austinTparty
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To: tonycavanagh
I guess the fact that French boys are already in country along side American and Bristish doesnt amount to a mess of beans

Don't waste your intelligence on this thread. Like all the rest on the topic of France, the posters are parrotting what they hear from our glorious unbiased media.

To expect these anti-French ignorant posters to demonstrate an awareness of true allies versus false allies is to be delusional. That will change. Just wait and watch, Tony.

86 posted on 10/08/2001 9:38:34 AM PDT by Merovingian
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To: Cincinatus
re : And you believe the reasons for their loss would be what?.

France as did Britain and Germany lost so many men in the slaughter of the First World War, the flower of youth was mown down in one battle after another.

After the war a revulsion set in, a thought of never again.

America although only in the war for a year experienced a similar feeling, during the 1930s the American army was cut to the bone, but she had the Pacific and Atlantic to protect her.

During the 20s and 30s revelation swept through Europe, this was partly due to the slaughter, after the loss of so much life, people expected a better world instead the world went into depression, France coping with massive reconstruction was very badly hit, as her population polarised between Nationalists and Socialists and Communists, there were strikes and street battles. Government after Government fell.

The old Maximum that Generals always prepare for the last war rang true in France and to a lesser extent my own country. Remembering the slaughter especially the Battle of Verdun which was burnt into the mind of every French Officer they built the Maginot Line.

Not only did this encourage a defensive attitude but it swallowed up a lot of money that could of been used to modernise the French Military, her communications net was a shambles.

The Germans struck using tried and tested blitzkrieg methods, I will not give a blow by blow account of the movements, but it was almost textbook, good use of tacticle air support, applying overwhelming force at weak spots, breaking through and causing havoc in the rear.

The French Army were demoralised, but when led were able to defeat the Germans in local battles, a hasty counter attack by de Gaulle's hastily formed 4th Armoured Division routed a German Panzer Division.

The Germans had better tactics and were better led, they were more highly motivated since they burnt with the zeal of National Socialism.

During the occupation many collaborated but many also fought back.

Free French Forces fought along side my country in North Africa, where they fought well, French Troops also took part in DDay.

The Germans used those same tactics in Russia, it was only Russia size and strength that saved her, Britain was saved by the channel.

America is lucky she has three factors in her favour, her size, the Pacific and the Atlantic

Tony

87 posted on 10/08/2001 9:38:56 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

Comment #89 Removed by Moderator

To: tonycavanagh
I guess I don't disagree with a lot of what you wrote. However, the fact remains that the chaotic conditions in France between the wars also prevailed in Germany, in many cases, to an even greater degree. Germany faced strikes, revolutions, chronic inflation followed by bust and depression, and of course, the ever-helpful communist "assistance."

Yet, it was Germany who won the Battle of France. In about a month, no less. Why?

In actual fact, the problem with France then was quite similar to the problem with them now -- an absolute, unshakeable certainty in their own superiority. Despite the lessons of the Great War, they still believed in the doctrine of offensive. They had hoped that the Maginot Line would hold back the Germans on the right long enough for the French Army and BEF to counterpunch them back through the low countries on the French left.

Well, the Maginot Line did hold on the French right. And they probably would have succeeded in counterpunching well enough in the low countries on the left. They only forgot about one thing -- the center. The Germans simply came through the "impassable" Ardennes, with all of their armor. And proceeded to stomp a mud hole in French behinds.

So what is to be learned historically from this episode? First, while not lacking in courage, the French possess a paucity of strategic insight, at least since the days of Napoleon (who was a Corsican, anyway). Second, they are unaware of their lack of strategic genius, again thanks to the Napoleonic legacy, and consider any non-Frenchman to be automatically, a fool. Finally, that most of the war jokes made at French expense are not deserved, but at least some of them are.

Yes, I know that DeGaulle warned them about the tanks. A prophet is without honor in his own land.

90 posted on 10/08/2001 10:14:34 AM PDT by Cincinatus
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To: Cincinatus
One man Hitler he unified the German nation, but at a cost, like Osama Bin laden today with America he gave the Germans an enemy it was all the fault of the Jews not you.

Using Nationalist Socialism he rebirth Germany gave them a sense of purpose that of the creation of the Master Race. Germany was promised a bright future.

What chance did a divided people the French have.

Cheers for the debate, it is good to exercise the old bean know and again.

The good thing is that there special ops are on the ground with are lads.

I feel that something has changed this war against Terrorism has united the West in a way I have never seen in my life time.

Tony

91 posted on 10/08/2001 11:06:45 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: tonycavanagh
Glad to hear it. "Proof is in the pudding" we like to say around here. We shall see how they do. I still remember France denying Reagan their airspace when we wanted to strike Libya in the 80s.

America owes France a tremendous debt of gratitude for we would not have become independent without her. However, 20th century France has left a lot to be desired, IMHO.

92 posted on 10/08/2001 9:22:54 PM PDT by Tennessean4Bush
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To: dorothy
I beg to differ, the French, even in Quebec, are more like a hemorhoid on the bum of the world.
93 posted on 10/08/2001 9:49:58 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: cajungirl
Don't forget the French Army was beaten by the Mexican Army in 1862 on the 5th. of May, Cinco de Mayo and gave the Southwest (or anywhere for that matter) a reason to celebrate. Cheers!
94 posted on 10/08/2001 9:57:18 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: elbucko
I'm partial to "frog-eating surrender monkeys."
95 posted on 10/08/2001 10:06:15 PM PDT by szweig
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Comment #96 Removed by Moderator

To: Stealthy
The Pasteur Institute had to start publishing their medical journal in English because no one wanted to hold their nose and read out loud in "Le Francais".
97 posted on 10/08/2001 10:17:06 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: l33t
The Left better pay more attention to their public. Muslims are not popular in France or in the rest of Western Europe. The Dutch are prepared to use the army against any Muslim radicals and the Dutch people would support their deportation, according to the International Hearld Tribune. When is the Left going to realize that blood is thicker than water?
98 posted on 10/08/2001 10:22:42 PM PDT by RobbyS
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: Guns4va
It's not caring about the French, but the "French Problem". You see the great toymakers of Germany have to live next to the French, and this turns the Krauts nasty every 20 years or so. N'est ce pas? Would YOU like France for a neighbor? I rest my case.
100 posted on 10/08/2001 10:40:21 PM PDT by elbucko
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