The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 159

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 158

[SoothingDave]

Hello all, hope you all had good weekends! Today frost arrived in western PA, as I dug out my winter coat and had to scrape my windows before driving off to work. My wife and I left Sarah with my parents yesterday and went to the mountains for "Autumnfest." I rode the "Alpine Slide" little individual sled ride down the mountain "Wheeeeeee" and we got a pumpkin and apple butter and real maple syrup. A good day.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Jesus was a human. He had the spirit of God in him and walked perfectly on this earth.

Havoc, was/is Jesus God?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I say it is oral tradition that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

Well that might be the substance of the tradition but one would expect something a bit formulaic to convey doctrine and nicely done in Greek. I'm looking for the exact tradition. :) I know y'all have preserved it so well. But it's hiding :) j/k

Seriously, bass, where did this notion of Jesus speaking Aramaic come from? Obviously it's not written in the Bible according to Havoc. And we know that there is no history acceptable to Havoc which states this. So it must be an oral tradition that was passed on, or else how would I know this?

I guess Peter being crucified upside down in Rome is a similar oral tradition, untestified to in any reputable (according to Havoc) history, yet the belief persists.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Can you address the logical disconnect between holding a book as the foundation of truth, when that very same book call something else the foundation of truth?

Well, no one asked me 8^( but I would argue that the "truth" which Paul is referring to here is the Word of God (Jesus' words to the Father: "THY WORD IS TRUTH."), or the Gospel ( Paul's words: " ...the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation..." Eph 1:13 and Col. 1:5). The church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" because it has been entrusted with the Word of God and exists to uphold it and hold it up!

So, the scriptures are not the pillar and foundation of truth; they represent Truth itself. The Church is the pillar and foundation which uphold the scriptures. WHAT AN AWESOME RESPONSIBILITY AND PRIVILEGE WE HAVE !

Thank you. Not only did you understand the question, you seem to have answered it in a reasonable fashion. You must be new here. ;-)

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I had a lot of visions back in the late 60s early 70s and soon found out it was related to good dope and bad pizza.

The best one I can remember was one night after a great party at our house with friends, this bad demon was after me and I was running for all I was worth, and just then my wife woke me up and asked me why I was screaming and running down the hall way on my hands and knees naked, I asked her didn't see see that demon that was after me and she said yes she had been watching it for years and would I please get back in bed before I woke up our friends.

It sure seemed real to me tho... :)

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Does this mean both should speak/both should listen? How do you listen to God?

And is communication possible without words?

Oh, ye of little faith!

What do you think the Bible is? God's communication to us. We pray to communicate to God, then read his Word for his communication back to us. Trust that what you read is what God wants you to know.

It's truly amazing how everytime you read the bible, something you have read many times will suddenly be clear, and somehow it always seems to be what we need at the time.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

I've just been reading OTT's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" and the Catholic Encyclopedia (at www.newadvent.com) on the subject of Holy Scripture. I have read about the inerrancy of Scripture, the divine inspiration of Scripture, and the authenticity of Scripture, but no where do I find anything about the AUTHORITY of Scripture....is this because Scripture possesses no authority for catholics? or because the authority of Scripture is obvious due to the fact that it is INSPIRED by God, AUTHENTIC, and INERRANT?

Good question. Yes, the inspiration and inerrancy make Scripture an authoritative source. Were we Catholics to believe that Scripture is no authority at all we would be the boogiemen that Havoc imagines us to be.

The difference is that we do not believe that Scripture is authoritative by itself. It requires an infallible interpreter who acts as a co-authority. Imagining the Book itself as the only authority leads to the chaos of Protestantism we see today. Individual minds reading the same Scripture argue over its meaning, each sure of the Paraclete's help and their opponent's possesion. Either true doctrine does not matter, most of the world is deluded (so much for the Helper), or the Holy Spirit likes doctrinal chaos.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Fow anyone who doubts the authenticity of this story, I am here to say IT IS ABSOLUTLY TRUE!!! The scariest part of the whole thing was I thought I saw it too, till I realized it was just his backside glowing in the moonlight as he crawled down the hall. :)

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Is it just me, or does it seem strange that the same people who argue for the beauty of "diversity" in the various churches founded after the Reformation disown this very same diversity when the magic word "ecumenical" is invoked?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The difference is that we do not believe that Scripture is authoritative by itself.

Well Dave, now that I know what your real problem is I can help you, if you would freep mail me we can go over this problem that you have.Do you have a couch in your office? :)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

Big Mack:

Pray = You talk to God.

Read God's Word = He talks to you.

Becky:

What do you think the Bible is? God's communication to us. We pray to communicate to God, then read his Word for his communication back to us. Trust that what you read is what God wants you to know.

At least y'all are on the same page. I'll give you that. Beyond that you have a very limited view of what prayer is. Do you remember the story of Elijah hiding in the cave? A mighty storm came, but it wasn't God there. A fire came, but God wasn't in the fire, an earthquake, but God wasn't in the earthquake. Finally a soft whisper came and that was God speaking to him. In the quiet voice.

Elijah didn't search the Word to find a message from God, he searched the stillness.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Heb. 1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir al all things by who also he made the worlds;

God spoke to prophets, the word had not been completed then. Elijah was a prophet.

Do you know what dispensation is?

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Holy Scripture NEVER says that one man or one office will be Christ's "stand in" on the earth.

That is your interpretation of things. To us when Jesus left His Keys with Peter it was symbolic of leaving him in charge down here. If I leave you my keys while I go away, I am deputizing you to act in my stead. Same thing.

Christ Himself said that the Holy Spirit, whom He would send, will be His presence on earth. It takes a lot to get my feathers ruffled, but this surely does----to say that a mere human, "good" as he might be---is Christ's substitute on earth, when Christ said that His Spirit would be His substitute on earth. This is blasphemous IMO.

First of all, as has been pointed out, "vicar" does not mean substitute, but rather "place holder" or "representative" or "agent." Second, the Holy Spirit is not a "substitute" for Jesus either. The Spirit is God, but He is also not the Son or the Father. Lastly, even if you object to the idea (or titles) of the Pope, you can still pray for him.

SD

[JHavard]

I was indeed full of humility and my heart was in the right place that night. When we are that clean, it's much easier to see and hear God's word.

Great story, and I think you summed it up for me when you said, "my heart was in the right place that night".

I wonder how many have had a miracle happen when they were at the early stage in their spiritual awakening?

This period of life is probably the purest and most innocent time of your life, and it seems that this is the time that God gives you a welcome home son gift.

I had only found Christ a few months, and I was big eyed and excited over all the new things God was showing me in the Bible, and all the promises of new and exciting things that were ahead of me on my new journey.

I had gotten an infection on the upper part of my right leg, from grinding metal where my elbow rested on my leg, and over several months, it had grown to be around 3"X 2" and would form a scab, but then one bump, and it would slide off, leaving a watery open sore again, and it would start the process all over again.

One night, we had read the Bible and had learned how God gave miracles to those he loves, so while praying, I asked God to heal me of this problem, and didn't make a big deal out of it, or have any heightened sense of closeness to God, simply asked him to take it away.

That next morning, when I got up, while I was starting to put on my socks, I looked, and it was gone, I mean completely, even to the point the skin was the same color of the rest of my leg.

My wife came over and we could only find the slightest discoloration where it had been.

Although we had many miracles in my life, this one stands out as the most obvious, and I will always believe it was because of my innocence in Christ, and my unquestioning faith which we seem to loose as we get older and start picking at our selves because we aren't perfect.

[SoothingDave]

The difference is that we do not believe that Scripture is authoritative by itself.

Well Dave, now that I know what your real problem is I can help you

You just figured this out? What do you think we've been talking about for the last 158 threads? Since we discount "Sola Scriptura" (Scripture Alone) you must have guessed that we didn't consider Scripture alone ("by itself") as authoritative.

SD

[JHavard]

yes she had been watching it for years and would I please get back in bed before I woke up our friends.

Ha ha ha , Lol,LMAOWROTF, and ROTFLMAO :-]

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Is it just me, or does it seem strange that the same people who argue for the beauty of "diversity" in the various churches founded after the Reformation disown this very same diversity when the magic word "ecumenical" is invoked?

Don't count me in that group, I'm a die hard militant FUNDAMENTALIST and don't claim any part of the reformation and diversity in the church is BAD.

Now I have to go patrol the perimeter of my compound. :)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

Don't count me in that group, I'm a die hard militant FUNDAMENTALIST and don't claim any part of the reformation and diversity in the church is BAD.

And if someone believes differently about the role of sacraments, or free will, or something like that, it's not "the Holy Spirit expressing itself through different traditions," it's just WRONG.

I admire that.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You just figured this out? What do you think we've been talking about for the last 158 threads? Since we discount "Sola Scriptura" (Scripture Alone) you must have guessed that we didn't consider Scripture alone ("by itself") as authoritative.

Come on Dave, its early and I was just teasing you, step away from the coffee machine. :)

I was just glad to see you back, missed you over the week end. I'm glad you and your family had a nice week end!

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ha ha ha , Lol,LMAOWROTF, and ROTFLMAO :-]

Thats the same thing my friends did when at breakfast Becky told them what I did. :)

BigMack