The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 159

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 158

[JHavard]

you know what kids think of "substitutes."

Great analogy, Great

[D-fendr]

re: "Yes, communication is possible without words....I do it all the time… I don't rule out… the Holy Spirit speaking to my spirit.

I understood this to refer to a personal experience of yours and was asking for you to describe this as best you could.

As to why I ask these kind of questions: In my opinion, we too often see religion as comprised of events in time/history, in terms of doctrine and theology, definitions and concepts and finite objective, even materialistic, objects and mental constructs. These then develop into debate topics with winners and losers, competitors. This is a discussion of religious topics, it is not productive religious discussion in that it encourages what separates and divides, encourages anger and jealousy.

What is forgotten, what is neglected in these debates is "relationship," our connection with the divine, our conscious contact with the presence of God/spirit. The metanoia, repentence, transformation, realization of the kingdom of God, if we see these things… this is more firmly in the realm of true spiritual growth, including but transcending material and mental knowing.

And here, doctrine, theology, our differences borne and hardened over centuries of argument, diminish, even disappear, in shared experience with our source, the love and compassion that transforms us in realizing our common suffering, our common longing for communion with the divine.

We cannot grow at the expense of another. To answer my own question of the purpose of these discussions: to be of use to each other in our growth toward realizing communion with God.

I understand the proper role of doctrine and discussion among religious folks of different views on these topics - I try to offer what I can sometimes there too. However, lately, I just think this particularly thread has strayed too far into an area of this that is harmful to its participants and others.

[hopefulpilgrim]

vicar: "a person who acts in place of another." (Webster ) (representative) Like Congressmen??? Uh oh, then we're in trouble. 8^ P

What I'm saying is that Christ appointed His own representative on earth----the Holy Spirit, our Paraclete.

[RobbyS]

That is a very loose definition. Think of what it means in the English Church. It goes back to the days when a priest was given a parish, or a "living". Back in the bad old days before the Reformation, he could "own" several such livings. Since he could not actually serve the different parishes, he would take the tithe that he earned from the parish and use part of it to hire a vicar who would actually serve the parish. In other words, the vicar was a hireling or servent. The pope is really the servant of christ, or to put it another way, chief minister.

[malakhi]

From Thread 158:

BTW Tomorrow is the anniversity of the Battle of Lepanto Vivat Hispania! Domino Gloria! Don John of Austria Has set his people free! Cervantes on his galley sets the sword back in the sheath (Don John of Austria rides homeward with a wreath.) And he sees across a weary land a straggling road in Spain, Up which a lean and foolish knight for ever rides in vain, And he smiles, but not as Sultans smile, and settles back the blade.... (But Don John of Austria rides home from the Crusade.) Maybe a good omen for George Bush!

You win The Neverending Story Prophet of the Week Award.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Read post#14 & 15

[stryker]

It is still possible under certain conditions and with a humble and contrite heart to receive a vision from God. However, it is something you must pray for for a long time with great humility and there must be some very important purpose that you receive this vision. Also, the vision will not be what you expect, and will probably be very frightening at first, until you begin to pray about it's interpretation and analyze it with reference both to scripture and to exactly what vision you were praying for. Believe me, you do not want to communicate with God in this manner unless you are a very courageous person and very well-versed in the scriptures. God is not limited in communicating to us just through the scriptures. I have had one vision, after six weeks of isolation, semi-fasting, prayer and Bible study, and I have heard his voice on one occassion. Both times, what I saw and heard were not expected, and were laden with so much wisdom that I was still learning over a decade later from events that lasted no more than a few seconds.

[RobbyS]

History has a terrible symetry. The 10th of Octover is the anniversary of the Battle of Tours.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I have had one vision, after six weeks of isolation, semi-fasting, prayer and Bible study, and I have heard his voice on one occassion. Both times, what I saw and heard were not expected, and were laden with so much wisdom that I was still learning over a decade later from events that lasted no more than a few seconds.

Welcome stryker.

This is for sure an new topic on these threads! :)

BigMack

[RobbyS]

St. Theresa of Avila, a famous mystic, never thought of her visions as anything but a burden and cautioned others not to seek them.

[D-fendr]

Thank you.

I think I understand what you mean; however, do you think there is possible something less dramatic or rare than what we would call a "vision"?

Something maybe closer to conscious constact with God's presence, something more akin to realizing spirit in all things, aversion to what formerly attracted us to sin, something closer to seeing the divine image in other humans, causing compassion to arise before anger and enabling love of our enemies to be a natural reaction instead of fear…

Is this transformation of consciousness real or possible for all us do you think? Is this perhaps what metanoia means?

Something less dramatic, yet deeper, more subtle…

[malakhi]

From Thread 158:

What I don't understand about any of the above is why you mention it all.

This arose from a discussion about the oft-cited figure of 28,000 protestant denominations. I asked how this figure was derived, and was given a source, but no description of their methodology (i.e. how they defined what constituted a "denomination"). I speculated that this figure counts every independent, "non-denominational" church as a separate denomination. Others argued that this was a fair and reasonable assumption. I pointed out in reply that in fact there are more differences within Catholicism than there are between some denominations. This does not strike me as a very bold or controversial point (have you ever read The Wanderer?)

You are knowledgeable enough about Catholicism to know that "theology" thrown around by any good or bad Catholic does not a teaching, dogma or doctrine of the Church make.

De jure, yes, but not necessarily de facto. I did use the word "dissenting", which of course suggests dissent from something.

It also surprises me that you speak of anyone who is baptized Catholic as Catholic when you must know about defacto excommunication. Some things make you automatically excommunicated otherwise you'd still be a Catholic in good standing because you were baptized Catholic. It isn't required that a public edict from on high take place to say someone is excommunicated.

A "de facto" excommunication is meaningless. If the person who is ostensibly excommunicated continues to attend mass, and continues to be given the sacraments, then in what sense has the person been excommunicated? (Excommunication of course refers specifically to the person's relationship with the Church on Earth, NOT to his eternal salvation). That the Church continues to share communion with Kennedy Catholics is a tacit acknowledgement that they are not in fact excommunicated.

Angelo, you are very knowledgeable about the finer points of Catholicism but there are a few holes in basic catechesis evidenced above.

Ultimate, I am aware of the way Catholics view these situations. I simply disagree that the distinctions you draw are valid ones.

[malakhi]

It is still possible under certain conditions and with a humble and contrite heart to receive a vision from God.

Hello stryker, welcome to the conversation. You raise a fascinating point that to my knowledge has not yet been discussed.

Hey everyone, a new topic for discussion. Read stryker's #27, and share, if you will, any experiences you have had wherein you have had a vision of, or felt the presence of, God. Or an event you've experienced for which a miracle is the most plausible explanation.

I can think of one event myself that happened about five years ago. I was sitting in my office at work, when suddenly I was struck by the awareness of the Presence of God the Father. There was nothing visible or audible, just a powerful sense of His Being. It lasted for several minutes.

I am not a visual person at all; I'm far more "sound-oriented". There have been a number of times when my most heartfelt prayers have been answered by what I can only describe as an internal locution. Once involved a decision to take a year off of college. Another involved prayer for my son shortly after he was conceived. This was our first pregnancy, my wife was having difficulty and we were concerned about losing the baby. I prayed incessantly, and at one point suddenly had a realization that he was going to be okay. Shortly thereafter, my wife's problem went away. The final instance involved our decision as to whether or not to try for a second child. I prayed about it, and I felt God answering me, telling me that we should try that month. We conceived on the first attempt. We had a terribly difficult pregnancy, but my daughter was born healthy.

A third case involved a near-accident about 13 years ago. I was on a two-lane highway during a winter storm, the roads were snow and ice-covered. A car coming from the other direction lost control. I maneuvered to try to avoid him, but we were heading straight towards each other. There is no way we should have avoided a serious accident. But somehow our two cars both spun around in such a way that they just avoided colliding. I could never have done it that way if I had tried.

[RobbyS]

I was at Ut in Austin when Whitman shot all those people. I was staying in Simkins dorm and was walking up to the Tower when something told me I should go visit my mother in San Antonio. I shrugged it off and continued walking. But as I got to the corner, I again felt the compulsion. So I turned back, got in my car, and drove to see my Mother in San Antonio. We are shopping when suddenly I saw a picture of the Tower on all the TV sets in the back. Let's just say my Guardian Angel was talking to me, because I had a lot of work to do in the stacks.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Havoc is just being Havoc, sort of like Emile Zola refusing to exmine the evidence set before him , or maybe the "scribes and pharisees" reaction to Jesus's casting out devils .

pot callin' the kettle what? Nothin' you've ever posted has made as much sense as Havoc's weakest post dude.

[saradippity]

On thread #158,post #97 Havoc states that no-one seemed to have any trouble getting in and out of Rome. I was reading Acts18;1and 2 and noticed that Aquila,who was a Jew and his wife Priscilla met Paul in Corinth after they left Rome. They left Rome because Claudius had ordered all Jews out of Rome.

This would indicate to me that if Peter had been in Rome,he probably was in hiding,since Jews were exiled and he was a Jew. If he was in hiding,in Rome,he quite possibly did write his location in code. The code word for Pome just might have been Babylon. I would be interested in your thoughts on it.

[al_c]

From 158 ...

Again, Obedience is everything.

For once, I must say ... good post, Havoc.

I just don't understand how anyone can deny that obedience is a key part of our salvation.

[JHavard]

This would indicate to me that if Peter had been in Rome,he probably was in hiding,since Jews were exiled and he was a Jew.

Sara, I took this off of my Easton Bible Dictonary, and it seems this ban was temporary, what do you think ?

(1.) The fourth Roman emperor. He succeeded Caligula (A.D. 41). Though in general he treated the Jews, especially those in Asia and Egypt, with great indulgence, yet about the middle of his reign (A.D. 49) he banished them all from Rome (Acts 18:2). In this edict the Christians were included, as being, as was supposed, a sect of Jews. The Jews, however soon again returned to Rome. During the reign of this emperor, several persecutions of the Christians by the Jews took place in the dominions of Herod Agrippa, in one of which the apostle James was "killed" (12:2). He died A.D. 54.

[al_c]

Good morning, everyone! I'm a happier man this week ... I have retrieved my wife and daughter from their week-long visit with my in-laws. Life is good.

Monday, October 8, 2001

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Jonah 1:1-17 & 2:1, 11 Jonah 2:2-5, 8 Luke 10:25-37 All the wealth in the world cannot be compared with the happiness of living together happily united.  -- Blessed Margaret d'Youville

From The Word Among Us ...

On a recent pilgrimage to the Holy Land, I had an opportunity to visit some Palestinian towns in the West Bank and Gaza. I saw many homes that had been destroyed by tank shells and missiles. A teacher in a Catholic school told me that his father had rummaged through the remains of his orchard, which had been bulldozed by Israeli soldiers that morning, so he could taste for one last time a fresh orange from his garden. Father Manuel Musallam, pastor of Holy Family Church, Gaza's only Catholic parish, remarked, "It's impossible to live or survive here without providence." He went on to say that the only cure for the situation was love. "We need love. Love is the only medicine for this disease." Every other way will ultimately fail.

If Jesus were to give us the parable of the good Samaritan today, perhaps he would talk about a Palestinian who risked his life and his reputation to help an Israeli wounded in an attack, or about a Bosnian who gave first aid to an injured Serb.

How can we overcome racial barriers and prejudices? God shows us the way. He did not spare his Son when he sent him to die for us. This love, poured out for all of us on the cross, now has power to free us from everything that divides and separates.

Real love is costly. That is why we are called to die to sin and to every form of hatred and prejudice, whether of neighbor or coworker or national enemy. When we allow God's love to flood our hearts, we will overflow with love. Paul the apostle reminds us that God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us (Romans 5:5). Let us ask the Holy Spirit to purify our hearts so that we may have room only for his love and peace to dwell there.

Lord Jesus, your death on the cross won pardon and peace for all. May all nations and peoples who have suffered strife and hatred for many ages find true peace and reconciliation in our day."

----------

Have a great day, everyone. And do something out of love today for your neighbor.

[al_c]

It is still possible under certain conditions and with a humble and contrite heart to receive a vision from God. However, it is something you must pray for for a long time with great humility and there must be some very important purpose that you receive this vision. Also, the vision will not be what you expect, and will probably be very frightening at first, until you begin to pray about it's interpretation and analyze it with reference both to scripture and to exactly what vision you were praying for. Believe me, you do not want to communicate with God in this manner unless you are a very courageous person and very well-versed in the scriptures. God is not limited in communicating to us just through the scriptures. I have had one vision, after six weeks of isolation, semi-fasting, prayer and Bible study, and I have heard his voice on one occassion. Both times, what I saw and heard were not expected, and were laden with so much wisdom that I was still learning over a decade later from events that lasted no more than a few seconds.

Every case is different. My experience with a vision from God was quite wonderful and uplifting ... not frightening in any way.

For those that I've bored with this story before (way back in the early part of the neverending threads), I apoligize for boring you one more time...

My wife and I had been trying to conceive for a while and were praying for God's help in this matter. In January of last year, I attended a men's conference (sponsored by the D-FW Catholic Men's Network) at the University of Dallas' chapel. I really had no idea what it was all about, but got the feeling that I should go. When I got there, I found out it was all about confession ... something I still wasn't very comfortable with even after 8 years of being a Catholic Christian.

I won't bore you with the details, but after it was all over and I went on home, I spent some time in prayer (a decade of the Rosary, the Lord's Prayer, and some one-on-one with The Man). That night, as my wife and I did our usual evening prayer before turning in, I asked God once again to fill our home with the joy and laughter of little children. At that very moment, I saw and heard two little children running and laughing in the hallway in our house and I immediately burst into laughter and tears. My wife heard it, too, and joined me in my extreme joy.

He later revealed to us what He was showing us ... my wife was pregnant with our first child! (She turns one year old Friday, btw)

What I saw that night was two children close in age. Given that information, I knew that they would indeed be close. We are expecting our 2nd child in February.

Where am I going with all this? I don't know ... I guess I was just sharing that with you to let you know that not all visions will frighten or take decades to figure out or only come after a long period of fasting, praying, etc. I was indeed full of humility and my heart was in the right place that night. When we are that clean, it's much easier to see and hear God's word.