Muslim blames US at Chicago's Largest Church (BARF)

10/06/01 | Dengar01

[Dengar01]

I just got home from church and I had to post this. I attended Willow Creek church which is north west of Chicago. It is the largest church in the area, it is a non-denominational Christian church, the main auditorium hold 10,000 people and was filled tonight. The topic of the 5:00 service tonight was the interview with a Muslim named Iama Fisal Hammounda, by Senior Pastor Bill Hybels. They will be having three more services between tonight and tomorrow, I pray to God they change their plans for the next services.

I knew this was going to get ugly when the church showed a video on ethnic diversity. I looked around at the church filled to capacity with over 10,000 people and noticed several Muslims.

The inteview started and the man was introduced as a Egyptian who moved here in 1974. He complained that his wife was in Florida and couldn't come home due to the fact that she would be harassed. The goal of Pastor Hybel's interview was to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion, lets just say that he failed, miserabley.

Pastor Hybels did ask some very good questions which surprised me since I thought the Muslim might take the questions as offensive. A few questions statements stood out. The Muslim declared that Islam was peaceful and that the terrorists did not follow Islam, fine I guess. He continued that a "Jihad" had to do with attacking sin he made the poor analogy of declaring a jihad on eating candy.

Continuing Pastor Hybels asked him about martyrs along with the virgins and the streams of wine and the Muslim responded I pray for that to happen. He was truly innappropriate and this is when everything went downhill.

He declared that the terrorists in the US were bad but that the Palestinians were "freedom fighters". Immediately after saying that all the Muslims attending applauded.

After the Muslims were jumping for joy with the Mr. Hammounda's innappropriate remarks, many people got up and walked out disgusted. I stayed to hear his next remarks which stunned me worse than his previous remarks.

He then stated that, "The US is responsible for terrorism"

That is when I walked out.

Fortunately for me to write this my sister and her husband stayed while I was complaining to several people at the Service Desk. The final statement which I was lucky enough to miss finished with Mr. Hammounda saying that Christians and Muslims can be friends, only on Muslims terms.

Yes you heard it the slime being spewed by the left is false. I heard it first hand from this man answering innappropriately while joking about a serious issue. I made the statement that this was unnacceptable for a church and should not be tolerated.

If you agree with me you can FReep the church at:
Willow Creek Community Church
67 E. Algonquin Road
South Barrington, IL 60010
(847) 765-5000
Fax: (847) 765-9222
General e-mail: info@willowcreek.org

Don't worry because the church had many people furious, about 200 people walked out including myself and many people were venting their frustration to people who work at the church. I will be calling the church tomorrow to let them know how I feel.

[FITZ]

The fact that 70% of Muslims voted for George W Bush shows they are not here for the hand outs.

I don't believe the 70% figure, many American Muslims are black Muslims and I doubt they voted for Bush. I don't really blame American-born Muslims though, I think only one of the terrorists they are looking for now is American-born. Islam just doesn't have a very peaceful history and even the Inquistion was an Islamic influence because the Spaniards had just rid themselves of 700 years of Islamic invasion which left some influences. The Inquisition was not approved by the Pope and wasn't practiced in other Catholic countries, and didn't last in Spain for many years.

[Hamza01]

Sorry about the name calling, earlier. That wasn't nice. You ticked me off a little, I responded. Sorry.

Allah is not the same God Christians pray to. Using your logic, Krishna is the same as Jehova because he is "god" to Hindus.

The word "Krishna" does not mean "God" in Hindi or Sanskrit. It refers to one god in a pantheon of powerful Hindu gods like Shiva and Kali.

Must I point out again, that in Arabia which has the oldest Christian communities in the world, Christian Arabs use the word Allah to refer to the Almighty.

[Greg Weston]

This Muslim guy is a Democrat??

[Hamza01]

wouldn't you be considered a kind of "Uncle Tom" Moslem?

For wanting to punish those who murdered 6000 innocents, including hundreds of Arab, Turkish, and Pakistani Muslims in the WTC? The Koran demands retribution from those who murder the innocent.

[Hamza01]

Unfortunately, they've got the guns.

[Bonaparte]

"They [Fox] wanted details."

Do a google search for "Willow Creek Community Church." The information is out there. The Willow Creek website only provides a partial statement of faith, with instructions to pick up a full copy at their service desk. It might be enlightening to read the rest of it.

Religious Movements Homepage: Willow Creek Community Church

Bill Hybels and the Willow Creek Church

Willow Creek: The Hegelian Dialectic Church

[father_elijah]

Must I point out again, that in Arabia which has the oldest Christian communities in the world, Christian Arabs use the word Allah to refer to the Almighty.

Again I point out that you are wrong. Specify which Christians in which Arab nation. The Christians in Saudi Arabia were all killed by Muslims or forced to convert by sword.

[father_elijah]

Just wanted to make sure that the people on this board, who are generally thoughtful, and mostly believe in the same things I do, would not have their view of Muslims colored by the malice of a few rather vile posters.

Try again. Too bad you didn't say would not have their view of Muslims colored by the malice of evil terrorists who attacked the United States. The truth, Hamza01, is that your co-religionists did more to color the views of people on FR than any "vile poster" could ever do.

Islam is what it is, and you are a johnny-come-lately apologist for Islam who shows up after the attrocities to create a fictional identity as a Muslim who believes sharia is a perversion et cetera et alia. Just go away. Your charade is up.

[father_elijah]

Hellfire, eh. I'm sooo scared. This is the crap the Taliban spew. Et tu?

Hardly, hardly. The Taliban like many good students of Islam issue fatwas and other calls for all of you good Muslims to visit mayhem and destruction upon American citizens and upon the United States of America. No matter how far you distance yourself from the Taliban, bin Laden, the Wahhabis, and other likeminded souls, it doesn't change what Islam is or what your co-religionists are capable of doing in the name of their God.

[mississippi red-neck]

a Baptist Church

If it had been a good ole country Southern Baptist Church those Muslims would have been coverted, baptized and rode out of town on a hog.

[Rightwing Conspiratr1]

Must I point out again, that in Arabia which has the oldest Christian communities in the world, Christian Arabs use the word Allah to refer to the Almighty.

Can you support your statement that there are Christian communities in Saudi Arabia?

[mississippi red-neck]

The goal of EVERY Mohammedan is that the USA adopt Sharia, or, Islamic Law. They CANNOT seperate church and state.

Right! The people of this country better study the history of Islam. Islam is a Nation in search of world dominion.Their religion IS their government.

They spread by migrating into an area or country. They are taught to quitely get along and not make waves while their numbers are small, yet they are not to blend in but are to remain seperate.

Then as their numbers increase the demands for more voice in that country's government increase and they start to use, violence as a means of increasing their power and then all those mild mannered ones seem to disappear. What just happened in Macedonia is a prime example. It's starting in the Philppines.

It's the reason they've kept there own people in camps in Lebanon for forty years and keep insisting that Israel let them return inside their borders, not in the so called Palistinian state. With the number of Arabs already there, this huge influx,will in a few years tip the control of the government of Israel to them through elections. They use demogaphics as a weapon to take control along with violence. Once they get established in a country [area] they spread like a malignant growth until they consume the host.

[Bush2000]

Don't worry because the church had many people furious, about 200 people walked out including myself and many people were venting their frustration to people who work at the church. I will be calling the church tomorrow to let them know how I feel.

Do the right thing: Find another church. You shouldn't have to tolerate this kind of crap. And encourage others to follow. I have the feeling that, if the collection plate gets lighter, the pastor will see daylight.

[JudyB1938]

Where do you go to church now?

[politeia]

You said the goal of every Muslim is not the adoption of Islamic law in the US. I agree there may be some Muslims who do not seek this, but they are going against their own religion and the weight of opinion in their own community if they feel this way. This was admitted, even though I don't think he realized it at the time, by a so-called "moderate" Muslim spokesman who was on Dr Laura Schlesinger's show on Thurs (Oct 4). I believe it was extremely revealing about the true Muslim agenda in the US, indeed in the world.

The guest was introduced as Dr. Hassan Hathout author of Reading the Muslim Mind and a spokesman for the Los Angeles Islamic Center of Southern California. This is the exchange as I transcribed it from the radio.

Question asked by “Ken” from Nevada:

Ken: “Is Islam in conflict with the US Constitution? Specifically, does the Koran instruct the faithful to strive for Islamic rule of law or government under Islamic rule of law? The fundamental question is this: Is the goal of Muslims Islamic rule of the world?"

Hathout: “For the last question, no it is not. As for the American constitution, I wish deep from my heart if all Muslim countries would take the American constitution for their constitution and live the democracy which is the essence of true Islam.”

Dr. Laura: “And take that Ken. Thank you. Did you have a follow-up or are you happy about that?”

Ken: “Well does the Koran instruct the faithful to strive for Islamic rule of law?”

Hathout: “No that’s when you are a Muslim community. If you are a Muslim community, you are required to judge your affairs… and in the Koran there is a verse that says that people of the torah should rule [unintelligible] should rule themselves with it and the people of the gospel should rule themselves with it and if you are just a Muslim majority nation, you are required by Islam to apply the Islamic law.”

Dr Laura: “However if you live in the United States of America?”

Hathout: "I belong in the law of the land. And that’s what Islam tells me."

Dr. Laura: "And that’s what Judaism tells us too."

After hearing this I returned to my Encyclopedia Britannica (1992) section on Islam and reread the material on Jihad. This is what it said:

Because the mission of the community is to “enjoin good and forbid evil” so that “there is no mischief and corruption on earth,” the doctrine of jihad, in view of the constitution of the community as the power base, is the logical outcome. For the early community it was a basic religious concept. Jihad, or holy war, means an active struggle using armed force whenever necessary. The object of jihad is not the conversion of individuals to Islam but rather the gaining of political control over the collective affairs of societies to run them in accordance with the principles of Islam. Individual conversions occur as a byproduct of this process when the power structure passes into the hands of the Muslim community.

I think the conclusions are clear. If and when Muslims are in the majority, they will use the power of the vote to conform our laws with Islamic law. This is what our leaders are ignoring. However "moderate" Muslims in America may seem, their religion recognizes no separation between church and state and is therefore fundamentally inconsistent with our political principles -- indeed with all of Western civilization. If America continues the open door immigration policy we may find that it is our political and religious principles that are merely "tolerated" by a Muslim majority while they pursue Islamic rule.

[aruanan]

The pastor was trying to get everyone to be sympathetic the the Muslim, and 5 years ago everyone would have sat in the congregation and listened politely while he made all these asinine comments.

Yes, but they're not now. You're caring about the intent rather than the result. Isn't that a particularly liberal way of looking at things?

[tinmanfr]

In reviewing this thread, I was a bit intrigued by your reference to The Fourth Turning. The thesis here echoes the letters of Jefferson and Adams. One (I forget which) in their later years wrote the other to the effect that they saw the US as a virtuous country, and then added a virtuous country is destined for prosperity but a prosperous country is destined to lose its virtue. ... That said, the national unity you speak of is never going to persist for long if the racist idiots in this thread, who never spent 15 minutes studying Islam, are any indication. That fool of a Muslim cleric no more represents mainstream Islamic belief than Jerry Falwell represents Christianity. The problem in Islam is their mainstream has been cowed and overwhelmed (hijacked) by fundamentalist extremist sects. Note to Christians: who is hijacking your faith? Whose face appears on the news when someone needs a Protestant to interview? .... Second, if you think the Palestinians are all wrong and the Israelis are all lily-white, here's a clue: you are brainwashed (or brain-dead), and that's coming from an Israel sympathizer. .... Finally, the hatred and scorn coming from the right towards "liberals" (i.e. anyone who disagrees with them) is the sulphuric acid that will soon corrode national unity. Listen, O'Reilly fans, it's simple: if you want unity, you gotta act unity. Talk about self-defeating.

[Don Myers]

"Right! As their slaves and servants! "

Can Muslims and others get along in the US? It doesn't seem so. And if this is a holy war, I seriously doubt that many Muslims would not side with their religion. Along with sleepers, we will have the enemy in our midst. And many Muslims are buying guns now, I understand, for self-defense?

[Don Myers]

"I don't mean to be mean but this church has lost it's way!"

And the Church leadership should be shown the road out of town.

[winodog]

Yikes!! I am not going to a church in Vegas right now. I consider Praise Chapel in Kingman Ar. my church. I use to spend a lot of time up there and hope to move there soon.

I use to go to Canyon Ridge which along with Central Christian and one other new one are outgrowths of Willow Creek.I found the service to be lacking as I like a teaching church. But my son loved the sunday school so I would go to a bible study which was excellent. Post # 114 has this church dead on. The pastor came from Willow Creek. It seems to get a lot of people going to church who not go and I hear lots of stories of people getting saved.

The first thing I noticed when I went was noone was carrying a bible and hardly anyone was dressed up. I have been to lots of churches where not everyone dressed up but this was different.That big one that use to be on Bonanza and Rancho Comes to mind in the empty parking lot.Cant think of the name right now. Great Church!But back to canyon Ridge,They do a skit or a play or watch the Brady Bunch on the big screen every week. Then they talk about how you can live a better live.They dont send you out the door with any doom and gloom and the Gods Word is a mix of both.

I like Paradise bible Baptist a lot.Cornerstone is a good one. Grapevine use to be a great church but i dont know what happened to it after that fire.I have been to Calvary Chapel Spring Valley and liked it.Hallelujah!!!!! Thats the name of the church i talked about earlier on Rancho. I went there for a long time and should get my butt back.

I must admit I have not been going to church lately. I have been working my butt off this year and that is my excuse. Now I need to throw this puter in the trash and then I might actually go to church on sunday morning.