Posted on 10/06/2001 2:42:47 PM PDT by MississippiMan
Quick question: I'm working on a novel and need to know what you think would be the single most definitive verse or brief passage that supports a pre-tribulation Rapture? I know there's a verse that does such but can't seem to find it at the moment.
Thanks...
MM
Who said the tribulation was a punishment for sin? What about the Christians being persecuted in Afghanistan, Sudan, and China? Was Christ's sacrifice insufficient for them? Doesn't the Bible speak of Christians suffering for Christ? You are confusing persecution and punishment, and wandering from Scripture in doing so.
As for the verse you cited, you have made the very common pre-trib error of believing that any verse that speaks of the rapture proves the pre-trib timing of it. Not so. Take a look at that passage, and you'll see that it could be describing a pre- mid- or post-trib rapture. No indication is given in that passage as to the timing or relation to the tribulation.
And by the way, let's can the "I'm a Christian, so I'm a pre-tribber" garbage. It's childish. Every poster on this thread is a Christian, and most of us are trying to have a reasoned and Scriptural discussion about our varying points of view.
In Rev. 2 the first church is Ephesus, the church whose eyes are not on Jesus; they focus on other things. The second message is to Smyrna, the faithful poor church. The third message is to Pergamum, the church of idol worship and pagans hiding sensual sins. The fourth message is to Thyatira, the church that tolerates paganism. The fifth is to Sardis, the dead works church. The sixth is to Philadelphia, the small but committed church. And finally, the seventh message is to Laodicea, the rich, materialistic lukewarm church.
Then, the church is no longer mentioned. Tie that in with the verses you pointed out, and you have a pre-trib. rapture. Yet, the word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible.
After the church is no longer mentioned, there is a sound of a trumpet and John finds himself in heaven standing before the throne of Almighty God. Then the seven seals are opened in the Book, one seal at a time.
I believe that we will be "raptured" before the tribulation.
Luke 12:36-38
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Rev 19:7-8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
You've pulled 2 verses and then told a story. What does the Bible have to say about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Pay close attention to the groom, the bride, and who actually eats at this supper:
Rev 19:7-21
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
There is a corrosponding passage in the Old Testament. I wonder if it might fit the context of the "marriage supper" above:
Ezek 39:1-8
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Ezek 39:17-22
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Rev 13:7 "He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them".
A little note if you are studying the subject of biblical prophesy.....just before we invaded Iraq, Turkey built a very large dam which greatly restricted the flow from the Euphrates river into Iraq. Now see Rev 16:12 Then flip over to chapter 8 verses 10 & 11 ( a story about a little town in the former Soviet Union that had a slight nuclear reactor mishap).
So who are the "Saints" if we all got on the bus before the Taliban strike?
God however goes on to mention that He will send an angel to protect us from "...sickness... and none will miscarry or be barren in the land." Read Gen. 20-33. Yes I know Genesis was written before Revelations but the horror described in Revelations 16 is the same as Genesis 11.
The point is this, in my opinion (it's tough to discuss Revelations in a format as this)we are in the latter days of the End Times. The prophets wrote about overcoming and that abounding grace and strength was to be given to the saints. If we are gone.....why the outpouring of His goodness...and to whom is it bestowed?
If Jesus comes before the tribulation, or any suffering at all on our part, we're all flying together - even the mid/post tribbers. :) In the meantime, it seems more reverent and scriptural to live as though we expect to die for Christ, than to expect Him to rescue us from any pain or discomfort.
After which, we will then rule over assigned parts of the world with Christ during the Millenium kingdom.
These are the tribulation saints....Fighting Irish. All the ones who heard the "Good News" about Jesus, but rejected Him until after the Rapture happens.
Afterwards they'll know that Christians were telling them the truth & will accept Jesus...but it's after we're gone.
Yours In Christ.
Here are some problems with that very popular notion:
1. Most who believe this see the Holy Spirit as the restrainer in 2 Thes. 2. He is taken away at the rapture, yet there are still converts?
2. These folks must be a different brand of Christian, who walk by sight, not by faith. They believe only because they've seen the rapture?
3. Christ compared His coming to get us to the time of Noah - nobody got a second chance in the flood, though they were no doubt convinced of Noah's story when the water reached their nostrils.
4. There is no hint of any conversions after the rapture. As a matter of fact, the Bible explicitly refutes that notion:
Revelation 16
9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony
11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.
5. The 144,000 are sometimes cited as the evangelists of this supposed awakening, but that is entirely fabricated. All we know from scripture is that they are comprised of 12,000 from the 12 tribes (although a curious combination of them), and that they are sealed with the "seal of God" on the forehead, they sing on Mt. Zion, they are celibate, and they are blameless. Not a word is said about them evangelizing, or anyone converting after the rapture.
6. This idea of the "tribulation saints" is simply an attempt at explaining away the fact that believers are persecuted during the tribulation - without admitting that the pre-trib concept is in error. That comeback is frustrating. Imagine that you really could come up with a clear pre-trib scripture - one that clearly places the rapture before the tribulation - and the mid/post tribbers shrug it off and say, "Oh, that's just the "Practice Run Rapture. The real thing happens later." Then we act like we're serious about this newly invented "doctrine".
Just like that, "voila!" the "tribulation saints". It isn't logical, it isn't scriptural, but at least it allows everyone to hold on to the pre-trib rapture.
Believers alive during the tribulation prove the pre-trib notion wrong. It is a clear example of the kind of scriptural timeline proof pre-tribbers fail to come up with. The original poster here has still never gotten a clear example of a pre-trib proof text. There are none, yet scripture is twisted to make room for the teaching.
Revelation Chapter 14: Verses 1-5:
"Then I looked and behold a Lamb standing on Mount Zion and with Him one hundred and forty four thousand having His Father's name on their foreheads:
And I heard a voice from Heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard
the sound of harpists playing their harps.
They sang as it were a new song before the throne,
before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one
could learn that song except the hundred and forty four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
These are the ones who are not defiled with women, for
for they are virgins, these are the ones who
follow the Lamb whereever He goes, these were redeemed
from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb
And in their mouth were found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Some will meet the bridegroom, while others will plead for some oil from their fellow maidens also awaiting the anticipated arrival. As their lamps run out of fuel they must either return for more fuel and risk not being there when the bridegroom arrives or awaiting in the dark.
Once the door is closed for the great feast they will not be let in.
This off the top of my head, and I'm probably butchering a major part of the parable, so please study it individually. For myself, I lean towards this greatly indicating a pretrib rapture.
Taken in context with numerous other facets and the body of Prophecy, I find the pretrib premillenial position to be less frought with problematic interpretations than the other positions.
Same reason you probably won't want to stand in front of a loaded barrel of a T80 tank with an M-16 and a radio to call for fire from the New Jersey.
I don't doubt there's enough firepower to overpower the Adversary, but remember that a 1/3 of Scripture regards Prophecy and it all points towards the Great Tribulation.
It's not called The Great Tribulation because it's a swell time.
Jim
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