The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 158

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 157

[Iowegian]

God is the Almighty creator of all things . we will obviously have to agree to disagree about the Trinity.

What do you mean here? I thought we all (except Jews and a few assorted cults) agreed about the Trinity. Am I missing something here?

[Havoc]

Here's a little treat for the Once saved always saved crowd to chew on: John 3:36:

o pisteuwn eiV ton uion ecei zwhn aiwnion;
The [one] believing in the Son has life eternal;

o de apeiqwn tw uiw ouk oyetai zwhn,
but the [one] disobeying the Son will not see life,

all h orgh tou qeou menei ep auton
but the wrath - of God remains on him.

Again, Obedience is everything.

[dadwags]

158:21
when I said we disagreed about the Trinity, I was making room for Jews,unitarians, etc.

[dadwags]

158:22
Havoc, what you cite is true, but about half of that post is Greek to me . (o_0) HaHa

[Havoc]

LOL

[Iowegian]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

[Iowegian]

Here's Greek expert Kenneth Wuest's amplified translation of John 3:36

The one who places his trust in the Son has eternal life. But he who refuses to place his trust in the Son, being of such a nature that he refuses to be persuaded, shall not see life, but the wrath of God is abiding on him.

This is consistent with all other non-Catholic translations. I don't know what any RC translations say.

It's faith plus nothing (as Paul made clear).

[Iowegian]

What is the Greek word that you are saying should be translated as "disobeying"? I want to look it up in my concordance. Thanks.

[Iowegian]

Sorry, this is wrong: "This is consistent with all other non-Catholic translations." I found one translation, the RSV, that agrees with your view. Are there any others?

[Havoc]

That wasn't my translation. I checked it before using it; but, evidently not far enough. I have a fairly rigid test for picking up a text; but, this one was given to me. It's a Zondervan Parallel - Nestle Revised. Did a check on who the participants in the translation were - looks like potpouri. It has the standard edition KJV and the NIV in parallel; but, the Greek is a newer translation and is apparently Hyper literal. I can see why the word was translated that way on the one hand; but, I also see the argument on the other side. I'm inclined toward the standard translation.

[RobbyS]

I can't even figure out if you are arguing philology or history. Fact is that half the time I can't figure out if English is your first language or not.

[D-fendr]

Late one evening, a poor farmer on his way back from the market found himself without his prayer book. The wheels of his cart had come off right in the middle of the woods and it distressed him that this day should pass without his having said his prayers.

So this is the prayer he made: "I have done something very foolish, Lord. I came away from home this morning without my prayer book and my memory is such that I cannot recite a single prayer without it. So this is what I am going to do. I shall recite the alphabet five times very slowly and You, to whom all prayers are known, can put the letters together to form the prayers I can't remember."

And the Lord said to his angels, "Of all the prayers I have heard today, this one was undoubtedly the best because it came from a heart that was simple and sincere."

[JHavard]

And the Lord said to his angels, "Of all the prayers I have heard today, this one was undoubtedly the best because it came from a heart that was simple and sincere."

What a crock.

[D-fendr]

thanks for your response.

[D-fendr]

Perhaps you'll enjoy this ecumenical story more:

A tourist said to his guide, "You have a right to be so proud of your town. I was especially impressed with the number of churches in it. Surely, the people here must love the Lord."

"Well," replied the guide, "they may love the Lord, but they sure as hell hate each other."

[JHavard]

So this is what I am going to do. I shall recite the alphabet five times very slowly and You, to whom all prayers are known, can put the letters together to form the prayers I can't remember."

Hey god, I’ll make you a deal. It reminds me of the story of the guy who promised to give all his money to god if god would save his life, and then after he was saved had seconds thoughts about the seriousness of his predicament, and reasoned that he would have probably lived any way, but his conscience began to bother him so he took all his, money and threw it into the air and told god to take what he wanted, and any that fell back to earth he would keep.

If the idiot in this story was smart enough to know the alphabet, I would have thought he could have remembered one prayer.

Any idiot that could come up with a deal like that and yet didn't know enough to ask God for help, deserves to be stuck in the woods with a flat.

If he couldn't remember one prayer, he must have really been sincere when he was vainly mumbling his way through the book normally.

I think that post like this are pathetic, it sends all the wrong messages to anybody reading it, but if you were a pansy, it might give you a warm fuzzy feeling.

[JHavard]

"Well," replied the guide, "they may love the Lord, but they sure as hell hate each other."

This sounds like a Catholic insider joke, Look how great we are, they need all those Churches to hate each other in, and we can hate just as much in one building,:-)

[D-fendr]

Maybe you'll like this one better:

When the early priest lead the worship each evening, the parish cat would get in the way and distract the worshipers. So he ordered that the cat be tied during evening worship.

After the priest died the cat continued to be tied during the evening worship. And when the cat died, another cat was brought to the church so that it could be duly tied during evening services.

Centuries later learned treatises were written by scholars on the liturgical significance of tying up a cat while worship is performed.

[RobbyS]

Petros's responsibility in ministry was to the Jews. If the Biggest Concentration of Jews of that time was in the region from Judea out beyond Babylon(and including Babylon), Peter had no Business in Rome - None This theory does not address the believe, already established in Rome by the year 130 that Peter and Paul had died and been buried in Rome. Clement I hints at this; the Apocolypse of Peter says Peter did. Revelations evidently identifies hated Rome with hated Babylon, as each had destroyed the temple of God. By 160-170, according to Arnold Toynbee in his book the Shrine of Peter, The aedecula, a memorial to Peter had been set up on Vatican Hill,and it was at that spot, which is under the main altar of Peter, that the digging you mock have taken place, and which found a grave and written reference to Peter. Certain Ireneus was so certain of the tradition that it made it part of his argument. Most historians are more willing to accept this evidence than any tendentius and sectarian theories based on the spotty history in the New Testament.

But apart from that, take a look at your argument that Peter had no business in Rome. Even if the cities of Mesopotamia had large numbers of Jews, Peter still had business everywhere if he was reaching out to the Jews. One out every ten inhabitants in the Roman Empire was Jewish, and all its major cities:- Rome, Alexandria and Antioch being the largest-- had large Jewish colonies.und the Mediterranean than it would ever again be until the 20th Century. So he not only had the duty, he had the ability to live up to that duty, because travel within the Roman empire was easier in the 1st and second centuries than it would every again be until the 20th Century. The fact that Paul could appeal to Rome and reasonably expect to be transported there, show how easy it would have been for Peter to make the same trip.

[JHavard]

Centuries later learned treatises were written by scholars on the liturgical significance of tying up a cat while worship is performed.

Yes, I like that one much better, but I still think you were wrong for making the cat a relic.Lol