The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 156

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

The belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good, is essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man. - James Madison

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 155

[Havoc]

Greek translation. So, unless you want to claim divine inspiration for a mere translation, the Petra-Petros debate is irrelevant.

This is an outright Garbage. I did a quick cursory exam on the word rock: maowz, challamuwth, celah, tsur; Double meaning words that can mean massive rock/mountain, cliff: nqara, caiyph, beqiya, baqa, har, hor, harar, chagar, tuwr, ma'aleh, aruwtz. And this is a first pass cursory exam on some of the translated forms of rock in the Chaldea, Not, including Kepha, so there, it's included too.

Lets not sit there and play word games like kephas is the only word in the aramaic that means rock, boulder, cliff, mountain, etc. That's been the implication for a while now.

How about a little intellectual honesty. The word Kepha means hollow or bent rock. Kephas means simply, rock and compares to the greek petros, not Petra. Equating Petra to Kephas would set both languages on their ears quite literally!

For those of you with Strongs: 2496, 4581, 5553, 6697; 1233, 1234, 2022, 2023, 2042, 2288, 2906, 4608, 5366, 5585, 6178. Again, these are not all the forms, this is just a first pass on the most obvious forms.

The debate is not irrelevant unless working backward from your claim. Working from what's there toward an understanding blows your claims out of the water. Look up the word mountain in the OT in Strongs and see how many times you see the word Kephas or it's root pop up, ZERO. Look up Cliff in the OT sections, again ZERO. Look up the word Rock and look at the OT passages and how many times do you see Kepha(s) used for Rock Zero! How many times for Stone? Zero! I started from the Big stuff down and did not include the listed words for stone. Easy enough to look up for anyone though, and there are I believe 14 words for it in the Chaldea. Try pebble and down, you might find something!

[Uri’el-2012]

You have a confusion about the person of Jesus. He had to learn things just like a regular human being. He did not posses infinite knowledge while on earth. He had to learn to tie his shoes (er, strap his sandals) and learn to read and write and talk and get weaned from the breast just like a normal human.
SD
139 Posted on 10/04/2001 14:39:07 PDT by SoothingDave

Did He not debate the Rabbis at in Luke 2:40-50?

Paying particular attention to verse 40,42 and 47.

Tehillim (Psalm) 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Saviour!

XeniaSt

[Havoc]

I would expect such from you. However it's unbecoming of Our Lord, who came to raise us to adopted Son of God status, to either put down us or inflate Himself.

It's not unbecoming of the Lord to tell us he's building his Church on whatever he chooses to. And he chose not to build it on anything but the Living Rock and the testimony of that Rock - The Lord Jesus Christ Himself! He neither puffed up nor inflated. What he said was a statement of fact. If you are offended by that, He was the stone of offense - Whom the builders rejected. WOW sounds awful fitting to the current conversation, rejecting the true rock, taking offense at him and fawning over Peter instead who is not God. Oh wait, you want on the one hand to say we're all very different from Jesus and then say we're all the same. You must think we're all God.. isn't that the argument you were trying to foist on me a while back and are now making the very argument you tried to accuse me of in a desperate effort to salvage a claim that has less weight than a feather......

How would I go about calling a man a very very big rock in Greek?

You'd say "You are a very very big rock in Greek". But people would look at you funny. How one would say it in Greek, replace the masculine grammer modifiers to the word Petros and replace with fem, then substitute Petra and you have it. Unfortuneatly, you don't have that happening. And nobody including Jesus calls Peter anything but Petros throughout the NT after this - clearly showing no name change. Dropping Barjonah wouldn't be a name change It just means of jonas (of his dad). And he didn't stop being Simon either. If his name changed, where is the evidence of it cause it sure isn't in the Bible. Nor is a foundation of anything on Peter.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Sorry for not getting back with my answers to pegleg, but been covered up in business and my mother was operated on but she is doing fine and went home today.

7) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?

In the contents page of the Bible, You guys seem to forget It was God who put the Bible together not man. and I'm not buying the argumemt that the apocrypha is inspired.

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

8 How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?

Refer to post #144

BigMack

[Havoc]

Or why would a person writing in Greek preserve Jesus' Hebrew words in Aramaic?

If one were expecting to talk also to a Hebrew Crowd, one would quite readily translate over to Hebrew as an aside. Much the same way Kennedy talked to Americans and Germans and said "Ich bin ein Berliner" (I am a Berliner). You're being incredulous at the obvious. I know you could think of these things readily enough; but, they don't help your argument..

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

9) How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first-century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us 2000 years later as Scripture?

2 Peter 3:16-17

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

10) Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

BigMack

[Havoc]

Scripture itself calls the Church the "pillar of truth." This is in direct conflict with the idea of the Bible being the pillar of truth that is Sola Scriptura.

The Congregatin is the pillar of truth (that which holds up truth). This is so because the Congregation is the collection of believers. It is the Body of Christ, And Christ is the head of that body. It is no different to say that Jesus stands over the Congregation or is held up by the Congregation. Your version attempts to coopt a spiritual truth and twist it into a carnal want. The clergy is not the Congregation, it is a part of the Congregation. And an institution is not what is being discussed here.

[JHavard]

Big Mack, I have looked back through the threads from 153 on up, and I do not see one attempt to answer any of your questions.

Either they sent them to the Vatican to have them fill it out, or they have no intentions of fair play.

Most of us NON's put a lot of work into these heart felt answers, and they reward us by nit picking through them to find our differences, rather then our common bond.

We may have been snooker by pegleg, to take the heat off of themselves, and pick up some ammo for later use, but I'm sure someone else is watching what goes on here, and what goes around, comes around.

We may all differ on certain points, but we are all of one Spirit, and it is easy to see by our post. We will never be accused of mindless blind faith, we have developed a personal relationship with Christ, and as my family was, we are all different as the disciples were different, and we are all individuals with our own mind, and that’s what God loves about us humans, we are interesting in the different way we go about things, but we all get the job done.

I think it's remarkable how all of us answered individually and from many faiths, but we all were in full harmony concerning salvation.

Go ahead and finish your answers though, it is them who have lost even though they didn't answer.

Do they call it a forfeit, or a no show?

[JHavard]

angelo, thank you for considering being an impartial judge, and I think you would have done a teriffic job, but it takes two to Tango, and they chose to do the twist.

It was a good workout though, and it makes us stronger when we have to answer as to why we have faith.

Thanks anyway

[Havoc]

I don't know how to post the greek in html, haven't got my html guide present with me, so I'll give you the phonetic: "hostis su ei petra" as compared to the piece of rock "oti su ei petros" this is translation based on standard usage we see in practice. I've been trying all afternoon to find a guide that shows how to post the greek and had not found it. So unless you know of a guide at this point that knows what it's talking about....

[Iowegian]

Scripture itself calls the Church the "pillar of truth." This is in direct conflict with the idea of the Bible being the pillar of truth that is Sola Scriptura.

But since you believe that Scripture doesn't necessarily have primacy over "Tradition" and church authorities you would hold this opinion no matter what. So why do you care at all what it says? Unless you only want to use it as a club to beat those who disagree (when it suits your purposes). You RC's have no idea how your attacks on the Bible undermine God's word to non-christians. You don't see it that way, but it does.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

While I'm looking for answers to pegleg questions.....

Here is another challenge to the catholics if you dare.

1. When were you converted?

2. How were you converted?

3. To what, or to whom were you converted?

4. What do you believe now, that you did not believe before your conversion?

5. What does it mean to be saved?

6. On what scriptural promises do you base your salvation?

7. What does it mean to be born again?

8. Are you sure today that if you die tomorrow, or at any time in the future, you will be in heaven immediately after death?

9. Do you believe that any sinner can be saved who dies without trusting in Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of his soul and forgiveness of his sins?

10. How do you believe that the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ is applied to your soul?

11. Have you told your priest you have been saved?

12. Do you believe you will still go to heaven if you leave the Roman Catholic Church, receive believer's baptism and join a fundamental Bible believing, non-Catholic church?

13.Are you trusting in your work, merits, baptism, confirmation, sacraments, or something besides, OR PLUS, Jesus Christ; and not in Christ and Christ ALONE.

If you have trouble with these you might do some soul searching to make sure your are right, look around at the times we are living in, its getting late boys and girls.

BigMack

[Iowegian]

Here is the most common definition for "sola Scriptura":
"The teaching that the Scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation and proper living before God."

I'm at a loss to understand what you find objectionable about this, but since you do, answer this question: What do you believe the Bible lacks that is necessary for salvation and proper living before God?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Big Mack, I have looked back through the threads from 153 on up, and I do not see one attempt to answer any of your questions.

I thought I saw pegleg give it a try a while back, but been so busy I'm not sure.

BigMack

[Iowegian]

Before I get misunderstood as going to a personal attack here, when I posted this: "You RC's have no idea how your attacks on the Bible undermine God's word to non-christians. You don't see it that way, but it does." I did not mean to single you (Dave) out for anything specifically that you have posted. In fact you probably do the least amount of attacks against the integrity of the Scriptures than any of the RC's, but those who do this a lot know who they are.

[D-fendr]

Beware of Greeks bearing grits.>

[Blessed]

Reply to post#19 The KJV & most pre 1900 translations read "We have also a more sure word".Perhaps you were using the NIV for your referance, "we have the prophetic word made more sure".Even using your referance it is evident that Peter believed the scripture to be more reliable than his personal experience.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Most of us NON's put a lot of work into these heart felt answers, and they reward us by nit picking through them to find our differences, rather then our common bond.

I just read yours and others and they are great, you guys did a great job, and as far as what the catholics did well...... its what there good at when the truth is put before them, they attack kinda like the democrats do.

Attack, deny and run and hide or change the subject.

BigMack

[Havoc]

Dude, it's not the transcript of a documentary. It was all written after the events of 16:18 (or any other event).

Yeah, and you're making my point for me. Those who should have, evidently, gotten it right, did and had plenty of time to do so. Want another piece of trivia? Every instance of the use of Petra in the NT is listed in the list below:

Matt 7:24-25 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his hous upon a rock (Petra). [25] And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock(Petra)."

Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Petros and upon this Petra I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail."

-seems that Jesus was abiding by his own lesson from earlier on. You build a house on a Big rock, not a smaller piece of one...

Matthew 27:60 "And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed."

Can't cut a tomb out of a piece of rock - has to be the Big stuff!

Mark 15:46 "And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock(petra), and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre." -- see matthew 27:60 above.

Luke 6:48 "He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundatin on a rock(petra!); and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock(petra)." -- dug deep (ie bedrock).

Luke 8:6 "And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away because it lacked moisture."

Luke 8:13 "They on the rock(petra)are they, which, when they hear receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

Romans 9:33 "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and a rock(petra) of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

1 Cor 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock(petra) that followed them: and that Rock(petra) was Christ."

1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling and a rock(petra) of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Wow, Even Peter, who should know he's supposed to be called Petra uses the word petra ONCE in two books and in mentioning his own name uses Petros. LOLOL.

Now, anyone have some Halelujahs to sound out! Praise God. And ya'll have been quoting these verses as authoritative - probably not realizing just how authoritative they are! Peter was in the presence of the petra, but nowhere in the entire NT is he referred to as petra, that is reserved to Jesus - Completly! The other indications show us how big Petra as actual rock is You cannot hew out a small rock and make a tomb in it - not even with median sized rocks (stuff you struggle to pick up or what you make statuary from). You can't build a house on small or median sized rocks. and there's nothing small about bedrock. Any questions?