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To: Tamly
And this was my response to Locke:

And you need to quit white-washing the Koran and understand the early and late suras. Moreover, the main problem with Islam is with its hermeneutics. The Koran and Mohammed's words are not conditioned. This theology of the incontrovertible Koran with a medieval hermeneutics has been a pervasive and unrelenting problem with Islam:

EARLY ATTITUDES: Muhammad and the Koran

The Koran has been divided into early and late Suras, the Meccan and Medinan Suras respectively. Most of the tolerant sentiments of Muhammad are to be found in the early, Meccan Suras:

cix "Recite: O Unbelievers, I worship not what you worship, and you do not worship what I worship. I shall never worship what you worship. Neither will you worship what I worship. To you your religion, to me my religion l.45 "We well know what the infidels say: but you are not to compel them."

xliii. 88,89 "And [Muhammad] says, "O Lord, these are people who do not believe." Bear with them and wish them 'Peace '. In the end they shall know their folly."

The exceptions are to be found in Sura ii, which is usually considered Medinan i.e. late:

ii.256 "There is no compulsion in religion";

ii.62"Those who believe [i.e.Muslims] and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in God and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

Unfortunately, as he gained in confidence and increased his political and military power, Muhammad turned from being a "persuader to being a legislator and warrior, dictating obedience." The Medinan chapters such as Suras ix, v, iv, xxii, xlvii, viii, and ii reveal Muhammad at his most belligerent, dogmatic and intolerant.

Muslim theologians are unanimous in declaring that no religious toleration was extended to the idolaters of Arabia at the time of Muhammad. The only choice given them was death or the acceptance of Islam. This total intolerance never seems to be taken into consideration by the apologists of Islam when they lay claims to Islamic tolerance. Unbelievers in general are shown no mercy in the Koran which is full of lurid descriptions of the punishments awaiting them. xxii.9:"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron- rods. The Koran also enjoins all Muslims to fight and kill non-believers: xlvii.4: "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

They are also accused of worshipping Jesus as the son of God, and like the Jews, they have been led astray and must be brought back to the true religion, that is, Islam.

According to the Koran, Jews have intense hatred of all true Muslims, and as a punishments for their sins, some of them had, in the past, been changed into apes and swine (Sura v.63), and others will have their hands tied to their necks and be cast into the Fire on Judgment day. The attitude enjoined upon the Muslims towards the Jews can only be described as anti-Semitic, and certainly was not conducive to a better understanding, tolerance or co- existence.

v.51: Believers, do not take Jews or Christians as friends They are but one another's friends. If anyone of you takes them for his friends, then he is surely one of them. God will not guide evil-doers."

v.56_64: O Believers, do not take as your friends the infidels or those who received the Scriptures before you [Jews and Christians] and who scoff and jest at your religion, but fear God if you are believers. Nor those who when you call them to prayer, make it an object of mirth and derision This is only because they are a people who do not understand. Say: "People of the Book: isn't it true that you hate us simply because we believe in God, and in what He has sent down to us, and in what He has revealed to others before; and because most of you are evil doers?" "Why don't their rabbis and doctors of lax forbid them from uttering sinful words and eating unlawful food? Evil indeed are their works. "The hand of God is chained up", claim the Jews. Their own hands shall be chained up -- and they shall be cursed for saying such a thing."

Jews are often accused, in the Koran, of perverting the scriptures, and holding doctrines they never held:

ix.29,30:"Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed but believe neither in God nor the Last Day, and who do not forbid that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who refuse to acknowledge the true religion [Islam] until they pay the poll-tax without reservation and are totally subjugated. "The Jews claim that Ezra is a son of God, and the Christians say, "the Messiah is a son of God. "Those are their claims which do indeed resemble the sayings of the Infidels of Old. May God do battle with them! How they are deluded!"

And they deserve fully any punishment they get:

ii.61:"Wretchedness and baseness were stamped upon them [That is the Jews] and they drew on themselves the wrath of God. This was because they [the Jews] disbelieved the signs of God and slew the Prophets unjustly, and because they rebelled and transgressed."

iv.160,161: Because of the wickedness of certain Jews, and because they turn many from the way of God, We have forbidden them good and wholesome foods which were formerly allowed them; and because they have taken to usury, though they were forbidden it; and have cheated others of their possessions, We have prepared a grievous punishment for the Infidels amongst them."

Such are some of the sentiments expressed in the Koran, which remains for all Muslims, and not just" fundamentalists", the uncreated word of God Himself. It is valid for all times and places, its ideas are, according to all Muslims, absolutely true and beyond any criticism. I have already described the treatment of the Jews by Muhammad, whose behaviour is certainly not above reproach. The cold-blooded extermination of the Banu Qurayza (between 600 and 900 men), the expulsion of the Nadir and their later massacre (something often overlooked in the history books) are not signs of magnanimity or compassion. His treatment of the Jews of the oasis of Khaybar served "as a model for the treaties granted by the Arab conquerors to the conquered peoples in territories beyond Arabia. "Muhammad attacked the oasis in 628, had one of the leaders tortured to find the hidden treasures of the tribe, and then when the Jews surrendered, agreed to let them continue cultivating their oasis only if they gave him half their produce. Muhammad also reserved the right to cancel the treaty and expel the Jews whenever he liked. This treaty or agreement was called a DHIMMA, and those who accepted it were known as DHIMMIS.

All non-Muslims who accepted Muslim supremacy and agreed to pay a tribute, in return for "Muslim protection", will be referred to as dhimmis henceforth. The second caliph Umar later expelled the Jews and the Christians from the Hijaz (containing the holy cities of Mecca and Medina) in 640, referring to the dhimma of Khaybar. He is said to have quoted the Prophet on the right to cancel any pact he wished, and the Prophet's famous saying: "Two religions shall not remain together in the peninsula of the Arabs. "To this day, the establishment of any other religion in Saudi Arabia is forbidden.

JIHAD – PAST AND PRESENT.

The word Jihad comes from the Arabic word jahada, which as Lane in his celebrated Arabic –English Lexicon points out, means "He strove, laboured, or toiled; exerted himself or his power or efforts or endeavours or ability" Jihad, continues Lane, "properly signifies using or exerting, one's utmost power, efforts, endeavours, or ability, in contending with an object of disapprobation, and this of three kinds, namely, a visible enemy, the devil, and one’s self; all of which are included in the Koran sura xxii.78. …Jihad came to be used by the Muslims to signify generally he fought, warred, or waged war, against unbelievers and the like ."[1] [Emphasis added]

As Tyan in his article in the EI² (Djihad, I.538 ff.) makes clear, "in law, according to general doctrine and in historical tradition, the jihad consists of military action with the object of the expansion of Islam and, if need be, of its defence"[emphasis added]. Tyan expressly rules out the thesis of a wholly apologetic character, according to which Islam relies on peaceful expansion, and that jihad is only authorized in cases of self-defence. This thesis ignores entirely the doctrines developed by Muslim theologians, the historical tradition, as well as texts of the Koran and sunna. Another scholar, Rudolph Peters [2], also emphasizes that Classical Muslim Koran interpretation regarded the Sword Verses of the Koran (see below), with uncoditional command to fight the unbelievers,as having abrogated all previous verses concerning relations with non-Muslims.

Koran VIII.60

Here are some hadith from Bukhari, Muslim and other traditionists:

Bukhari [3] LI.1: "Verily Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for theirs (in return) is Paradise.They fight in His cause, so they kill (others) and are killed…"[using forms of the verb " qatala" = to kill]

Bukhari:[4] LI.2 "Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah’s Messenger saying, "The example of a Mujahid in Allah’s cause – and Allah knows better who really strives in His cause – is like a person who fasts and prays continuously.Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty."

Bukhari: [5] LI. 6 Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, ‘Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah …would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom,would like to come back to the world and get killed again."

Bukhari: [6] LI.22.Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu’ba:: Our Prophet told us about the message of our Lord that "… whoever amongst us is killed will go to Paradise"

‘Umar asked the Prophet, ‘Is it not true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and theirs will go to the fire?’ The Prophet said ‘Yes ’.

Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Abi Aufa, Allah’s Messenger said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." [meaning « under the protection of swords."]

Bukhari: [7] Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Messenger said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one whom kills the other and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah’s cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the killer who also gets martyred (in Allah’s cause)."

Bukhari [8]: Narrated as-Sa’b bin Jaththama: The Prophet passed by me at a place called al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They are from them." [i.e. the women and children are also pagans, hence it is permissible to kill them. However there are other hadith which do forbid the killing of women and children.]

Even a cursory glance at the chapter on Jihad (Vol.IV, pp. 34-199) in Bukhari is enough to show that real battles, deaths, wounds, horses, swords, arrows, prisoners of war, looting, booty, burning and destruction are being referred to. Hadith after hadith recount in horrible details as to how the Jihad against infidels was to be carried out; no they do not talk of metaphorical battles, or allegorical, spiritual struggles, but bloody war.

Sunan Abu Dawud,[9] Kitab al –Jihad:

(2632) Ayas b.Salamah reported on the authority of his father: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed Abu Bakr our commander and we fought with some people who were polytheists, and we attacked them at night, killing them. Our war-cry that night was ‘ put to death; put to death’. Salamah said: "I killed that night with my hand polytheists belonging to seven houses."

(2664) Samurah b. Jundub reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: « Kill the old men who are polytheists, but spare their children."[10]

Sahih Muslim [11] (4292); The Messenger of Allah made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water.He killed those who fought and imprisoned the others.

Sahih Muslim: (4294) If they (the enemy) refuse to accept Islam, demand from the Jizya; If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.

Averroes [12]: "Scholars agree that jihad is collective not a personal obligation.... According to the majority of scholars, the compulsory nature of the jihad is founded on sura 2:216 ‘Prescribed for you is fighting, though it be hateful to you.’ … Scholars agree that al polytheists should be fought. This is founded on sura 8:39 ‘Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely."

SECULARISLAM

28 posted on 10/01/2001 1:30:22 PM PDT by Lent
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To: Lent
I've learned a lot in the last couple of weeks. It's been painful but necessary.
109 posted on 10/01/2001 6:38:41 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Lent
"Paging Lord Acton. Please go to a white courtesy phone."
135 posted on 10/01/2001 9:21:38 PM PDT by Erasmus
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