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To: JHavard
Isn't it peculiar how Christ spent so much time showing that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were one, and if you knew him you knew the father.

one fold and one shepard

Husband and wife would become one

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

So after all these words about them being one, Christ puts Peter in charge and gives him all this authority that none of the others have?

Yep. You seem to confuse unity and egalitarianism. Just because we are united doesn't mean we are all equal in station. We are united under our One Head, Christ the Lord. And in His stead and to exercise His Authority until He returns (symbolized in the transfer of the keys), we are united under Peter.

We can all be united to try to stop terrorists, to protect God's people on earth, but that doesn't mean we don't need earthly leaders.

I don't think so since I see no examples of any power strugle between any of them.

Why would an apostle struggle against the leader Christ himself appointed? Would you expect to see a power struggle? Especially since Christ gave a nice talking to to the disciples arguing about who was his favorite.

138 posted on 10/01/2001 2:17:08 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Yep. You seem to confuse unity and egalitarianism. Just because we are united doesn't mean we are all equal in station. We are united under our One Head, Christ the Lord. And in His stead and to exercise His Authority until He returns (symbolized in the transfer of the keys), we are united under Peter.


Mt 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

27. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28. Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Should I go back in the threads and see what your answer was the last time, or do you have a new one?

143 posted on 10/01/2001 3:06:02 PM PDT by JHavard
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To: SoothingDave
Why would an apostle struggle against the leader Christ himself appointed? Would you expect to see a power struggle? Especially since Christ gave a nice talking to to the disciples arguing about who was his favorite.

This statement comes from one who comes from Catholicism. You can't be serious. Did I not just read an example of the Catholic church's printed conclusions about an unreported power struggle between Peter and Paul. It isn't documented anywhere in history - nowhere, yet movies have been made on this fiction. Can't have it both ways. I would have to say there is absolutely no evidence of a power struggle occuring. You guys seem to find the story neccessary to explain away the silence between Peter and Paul in I & II Peter. The silence is more understandable when one looks at the fact that Paul sent Timothy after Mark outside of Italy In II Timothy, and at the same time of that writing by dating of the documents, I Peter is written and Mark is with Peter. Simple math. If Mark is not in Italy and Mark is with Peter, Peter is not in Italy - Much less Rome. And the last time Sylvanus was documented to be with Paul was 10 years prior. He's with Peter too - not in Rome.

Then there is the problem with Common usage of Rome being referred to as Babylon. Common usage cannot be shown until after the Writing of Revelation. Revelation, as it is told us by the writer, is Prophecy delivered to the writer from God. And Revelation was written 31 years after The Catholic Church Says Peter Died. If the first usage didn't occur until 31 years after Peter's death, And the next example of it happened 35 years after his death, it cannot be claimed that common usage existed for Peter to employ. And knowing that Paul's visitors were free to come and go as they pleased though they were great in Christ - it also begs belief that Peter should have to Hide in Rome. If Mark can waltz in and out, Timothy can waltz in and out, Osineas, etc, etc, etc for years. Peter would hardly have to hide himself. What nonsense.

Peter had no reason to be coy about telling anyone where he was. He wrote from where he said he wrote - Babylon. We know for a fact that there were two cities of that name in existance at the time. And the size of the city hardly matters to it's worth to visit. It was known to have included Jewish settlements early on dating from the time of the Babylonian captivity. Even the RCC won't say the Mesopotamean Babylon didn't exist at the time, they admit it was nearly inconsequential in it's size and power as a city; but, it was still there. And if there were people there, there was reason to be there. Spreading the Gospel to the whole world didn't mean the Roman empire, it meant the whole world. Ya'll seem to miss that point too.

Shall I pile on more? Lets. There were twelve. Where'd the other 11 go? Could it be that they were doing what they were charged to do? And there is mostly silence from them. Peter wrote some, but there is mostly silence from him too. Too busy to write? Paul was prolific; but, his writings came mostly from jail - had a lot of time on his hands. He's the only one that really stood still and only after he was captured. OOPS. Peter did have a home Church; but, it was in Judea and he had no reason not to keep it there. His ministry was to the Jews and the biggest concentration of Jews in the world were not in Rome or even Italy, but in the area of Judea - until the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. OOPS.

Were there Jews in Rome, yes. But there were Gentiles in Judea. OOPS. And rather than Paul going to Judea to teach those Gentiles, he jerked Peter's Chain and straightened him out on how to do it.. OOPS again. If Paul need not teach the Gentiles in Judea, Peter need not teach the Jews in Rome.. OOPS OOPS.

Another thing comes to mind - I'm full of interesting tidbits tonight. If Peter's primary ministry was to the Jews. How is it that None of the early Bishops of Rome were Jewish? If he was there teaching the Jews, where are all the Jews of the Roman Church? And given his office again, why the continued persecution of Jews by the Roman Church through the ages. One would think that a group supposedly founded by Peter would love and Cherish the Jews - that history isn't there. The fact is that persecution of them was the theme of the day for centuries. Missed a number of OOPS's in this one but they OOPS themselves pretty loudly.

Another thing comes to mind, How could Peter have traveled to Britain as the Brits claim if he was stuck in Rome during the times you want to claim he was. Travelling to Britain wouldn't necessarily be out of the way for any of the Apostles to do. Is their claim less credible or more credible? They have about as much evidence. OOPS.

I have more, just let me know when you want to here the rest.

159 posted on 10/01/2001 7:07:13 PM PDT by Havoc
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