[The Black Knight]

Again, I thank you for your responses.

[Saintt]

Check out www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP/html - There is an article entitled, "Christianity and the Death Penalty. I knew there was a St. Thomas Aquinas thread somewhere ( there is also a www.aquinasonline.com/topics/tolerance/html, but I could not open it.) More is better. I am sure the liberals have not read Aquinas. We should easily be able to defend our faith and our convictions intellectually and artistically. But suffice it to say that htere is no theological contradiction between advocacy for the death penalty and condemning abortion.

[BillyBoy]

>> First of all, I am a conservative (duh) Christian, and, as such, I oppose abortion on the belief that we do not have the authority to end human life. A liberal co-worker whom I usually argue politics with calls me a hypocrit, because I believe in the death penalty. He says that I can't believe in both. PLEASE HELP ME! <<

1) Well, I am "pro-life" but on the basis that NO ONE has the right to take INNOCENT human life. No one. Taking the life of GULITY people, on the other hand, is justify in both my eyes and from the P.O.V. of the bible. If someone came at me and my family with a meat clever trying to carve us up, I'd certainly be justified to shoot them in the head as an act of self-defense. This act would take ONE life, but it would SAVE countless INNOCENT lives in the process. Therefore, I believe the Terrorist War, the Death Penelty, and Owning a gun for PROTECTION (if nothing else) are justified. They are all used for the purpose of saving innocent lives by halting murders that occur at the hand of gulity lives. However, I am totally against abortion, euthentia, and joy-killing. These are all jeolosy acts that end INNOCENT lives merely for self-gradification.

2) Haven't heard much because I don't live in the western rockies. However, we've had simular problems here in the mid-west with ignorant federal land regulations. The problem, IMO, rests with Gale Norton and no one else. Some freepers seem to want to make excuses for her by claiming Bush is secretly giving her orders or whatnot. I don't think so-- the buck stops with the Interior Secretary, and we have an RINO Interior Secretary that was falsely sold to us as a conservative. Encourage President Bush to dumb her, and put Helen Chenworth in her place. Betsa the Klamath farmers would get FAR MORE attention to their plight if the latter occured. ;-)

[parsifal]

"First of all, I am a conservative (duh) Christian, and, as such, I oppose abortion on the belief that we do not have the authority to end human life"

If that is your argument, the liberal is right.

[oldvike]

Aside from the baby monster in the movie "Alien", I've never heard of a fetus murdering anyone.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

The way I usually approach it is this:

Do you believe it is wrong to kidnap someone? Yes.

Do you believe someone who kidnaps should be arrested? Yes.

Isn't that arrest just a legal kidnapping? Uuugggghhh....

My point is this:
If we use the arguement, "If it's wrong to kill someone, then it's wrong for everyone (including the government)," then we must also be prepared to say, "If it's wrong to kidnap someone then it's wrong for everyone (including the government)." The government can also fine you for things. Isn't that just stealing?

We say that the government has certain authority to fine, arrest and execute people who break the law and are found guilty buy a jury. If the government illegally fined, arrested or executed someone, we would accuse them of stealing, kidnapping or murdering.

In the end, I believe it comes down to the guilt of the executed and the authority of the executioner.

- An unborn baby is not guilty of breaking any law and the doctor does not have the authority to kill him even if he could be guilty.
- A convict is guilty of breaking the law and the state has the authority to execute him (by consent of the governed).

[fellowpatriot]

I had the same argument with a lib years ago. I simply turned it around and asked her how she could be against killing an evil person and at the same time think it's ok to kill an innocent.

She was speechless.

[CaliforniaOkie]

Aborting a live fetus is an abomination to God. It is destroying God's plan. A person who takes another life delibertly (shedding of innocent blood) does not quality for the atonement of Christ. They must give their own life to ever hope to be redeemed.

[Slewfoot]

It is a matter of responsibility, if I tell you "Don't put a butter knife in an electrical outlet or you will be electrocuted."

If society tells you, "Don't murder someone for their wallet or you will be electrocuted."

Liberals have trouble understanding personal responsibility, but in both cases you have the choice. If you put the knife in the outlet, whose fault is it if you get fried? If you kill someone, whose fault is it if you get fried? You get to decide. Just as everyone on deathrow made thier choice.

Now how about if the liberals give the babies thier choice.

[BillyBoy]

BIBLE QUOTES ON ABORTION AND THE DEATH PENELTY

ABORTION

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
--Genesis 3:16

"...they were twin boys within her womb."
--Genesis 25:24

"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless...Rescue the weak and needy."
--Psalm 82:3-4

"Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him... For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb"
--Psalm 139:13-14

"This is what the Lord says- it is he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you"
--Isaiah 44:2

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined...But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life"
--Exodus 21: 22-23

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her... he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay"
--Exodus 25

"Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent life."
--Deu 27:25

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you."
--Jeremiah 1:5

"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb."
--Luke 1:15
[NOTE: the bible states earlier that only PERSONS can be filled with the Holy Spirit]

For, behold, the [apocalypic] days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the womb that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
--Luke 23:29

DEATH PENEALTY

"Whoever sheds man's blood, by man [shall] his blood be shed, for in the image of God, he made Man"
--Gen. 9:6

"Say to the Israelites: `Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death'"
--Leviticus 20:2

"They kept the [murderer] in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, 'The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." ...the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded"
--Numbers 15:33-36

"`Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses"
--Numbers 35: 30

"The blood of the victim defiles the land. The only way to clense it is to administer capital punishment to the murderer"
-- Numbers 35:33-34

"If a man guilty of a capital offense, [he] is put to death and his body is [to be] hung on a tree"
--Deuteronomy 21:22

"As the lord lives, surely the man who has done this deservse to die"
-- 2 Samuel 12:5

There you go.

[Prodigal Son]

First of all it, the one has nothing to do with the other. The liberals figure if they can brand you as a hypocrite then they make your position appear invalid. Even if you are proven to be a hypocite, it doesn't invalidate a truthful argument. This is simplistic, but let's say I'm a known hypocrite on a wide variety of subjects. That doesn't invalidate my statement "2+2=4". But that's beside the point because the death penalty has nothing to do with abortion. If it invalidates your argument if you're for one and against the other, then it also invalidates theirs if they are anti death penalty but pro abortion. But don't even go down that road with them.

The Pro Life position is very very simple and logical.
1) It is wrong to take an innocent human life.
2) Abortion takes an innocent human life.

Everything else follows from that. If they ask when life begins- answer is at conception. It's plain and simple and there are no gray areas that many pro abortion people have about when life begins. Don't fall for the attempt to ridicule this by calling an embryo a microscopic clump of cells that has no resemblance to a human. Newborn babies bear little resemblance to the adults they will become, nor can they reason, protect themselves or live without a protector. The instant an embryo is fertilized it has unique DNA. All the instructions for what that person will become are written at that moment. None of these things happen before conception and everything that happens afterwards can be described as further development of the process started at conception. If DNA evidence can be used to convict someone of a crime, it sure as heck can be used to point out that an individual life is in the womb.

A lot of 'em want to point out that most fertilized eggs never implant in the womb. I've been trying a new slant on this argument. If possible, beforehand ask them about "Green" issues. Do they agree with letting wildfires burn in national parks because it is Mother Nature's way? Do they think we should let wildlife live out their lives the way Nature intended? Do they generally believe that the "Natural Way" is best (organic food vs gene altered etc) or otherwise believe it's best to let Nature run its course? Then it follows that we should allow Mother Nature run its course with pregnancy.

The best argument though, is the partial birth abortion. Hard core pro abortionists believe it's ok to terminate right up to the moment that the umbilical cord is cut. That's hard to believe but here's a thread from Democratic Underground that discusses that issue:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=list_threads&om=1&forum=DCForumID33
(see post # 21 in particular)

This is where most pro choicers start to waffle in their beliefs. Most don't agree with that. Many still believe a third trimester abortion is ok. But many more do not. Attack that angle of viability. You can usually get them to agree that when a fetus becomes viable outside the womb then abortion is no longer right. Raise the hypothetical situation concerning when medical science pushes the borders of viability ever closer to the conception date. Push that angle. What happens when it is routine to keep a fetus alive after only 12 weeks gestation? 8 weeks? 4? As viability gets pushed back, the window for abortion becomes ever smaller.

You can also pursue this line of argument. Back in the 60s and early 70s, it could still be argued that many young people (for whatever reason) didn't understand the basic facts of reproduction and contraception. Young men might have disdained condoms and a young girl that would seek the pill might get a reputation as a slut. But thanks to our liberal brethren, times have changed. Sex education is common in school and contraception use is pushed in the various media. Can anybody truthfully say nowadays that they didn't know that having unprotected sex would lead to pregnancy? Thanks to the liberal agenda, today's youth know beforehand what the consequences are. At some point there has to be a line drawn. Maybe you can still argue that a 14 year old girl isn't emotionally equipped to understand the consequences but a 32 yr old woman? I'm sorry. She knew and she just didn't care and as long as there are people telling her that it's ok to kill her baby, it's just a parasite anyway yadda yadda yadda she doesn't feel like it's a big deal to have an abortion.

I'm sorry for the long reply. The Abortion discussion was one of the main reasons I joined Free Republic. I'm absolutely ruthless about it in a face to face. The last thing I'd like to point out is: they like to label us fanatics, looneys, cranks etc. But once a person weighs the evidence and comes to the conclusion that murder is being committed, they have a moral obligation to try to stop it- much the same as stopping the Holocaust should have been reason enough for us to join the fight against the Nazis (according to the liberals). I used to be pro choice. Many long years of thinking about this issue have changed my mind.

[Joe 6-pack]

Two articles I've posted in the past:

"Bork on Life"

and

"Capital Punishment is Life Affirming." (humbly authored by your's truly.)

[Aquinasfan]

The aborted have committed no crime. They are completely innocent.

The traditional moral justification for the death penalty is not vengeance or retribution, but public safety. Murderers are executed to prevent them from murdering again. Paradoxically, murderers are executed to save lives.

The most important function of the State is to defend the lives of its citizens, hence the need for the military and police. The death penalty is pretty much the furthest extension of this principal.

[lds23]

Do the unborn get legal representation, and rights to appeal?

[BibChr]

Opposition to abortion and the requiring the death penalty are both necessary for the same reason: the sanctity of life.

Babies may not be killed for being imperfect or inonvenient because they are alive as humans, and their life is precious and theirs to keep as long as God says.

Murderers must be executed for wrongfully taking human life, which was precious and not the murderer's for the taking; and for the taking of which the only just penalty is the life of the murderer.

Not hard.

Dan

[ConservativeNJdad]

He says that I can't believe in both

He's right. Killing someone in battle or in order to prevent a crime is one thing, but killing a person who is helpless and harmless (such as a prisoner) should be opposed by Christians, particularly if the condemned is NOT a Christian.

Aside from the ethical problems of killing an obviously-guilty prisoner, the execution of people like McVeigh make it easier to execute the next guy, who killed 2 people, and the next guy, who we're pretty sure is guilty.

It always amazes me that people who don't trust the gov't to educate their kids or pick up their trash have no problem believing the gov't will not mistakenly execute an innocent person.