The Myth of Mecca

PUSA.com ^ | 9/27 | Dr. Jack Wheeler

[francisandbeans]

The most sacred spot on earth to all members of the Islamic religion is the Holy City of Mecca, revered as the birthplace of Mohammed. It is one of the five basic requirements incumbent upon all Moslems that they make (if their health will allow it) a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their lives (the other four: recognize that there is no god but Allah, that Mohammed is Allah's prophet, ritually pray five times a day, and give alms to the poor).

The founding events of Islam are Mohammed's activities in Mecca and Medina, a city north of Mecca. The life of Mohammed, known as the Sira, is popularly accepted to be fully documented historically, that everything he did and said was accurately recorded. According to one hagiographer, although Mohammed "could not read or write himself, he was constantly served by a group of 45 scribes who wrote down his sayings, instructions and activities.... We thus know his life down to the minutest details."

The evidence for this is "the earliest and most famous biography of Mohammed," the Sirat Rasul Allah (The Life of the Prophet of God) of Ibn Ishaq. The dates given for Mohammed's life are 570-632 AD. Ibn Ishaq was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over 100 years after Mohammed lived, precluding his gaining any information from eyewitnesses to the Sira as they would have all died themselves in the intervening years.

However, no copies exist of Ibn Ishaq's work. We know of it only through quotations of it in the History of al-Tabari, who lived over two hundred years after Ibn Ishaq (al-Tabari died in 992). Thus the earliest biography of Mohammed of which copies still exist was written some 350 years after Mohammed lived.

It is curious, therefore, that there seems to have been so little serious scholarly research of the historical evidence for how Islam came to be. Yet what seems to be isn't so. A number of professional academic historians, both Western and Moslem, have produced a large body of research on the origins of Islam. For reasons best known to the pundits and reviewers who should be aware of it, this research remains publicly unknown.

rest of article here

[mercy]

There's one thing wrong with your analysis. You haven't the basest understanding of the word 'myth'. To your simple cognitive powers the pop culture bastardization of the word is just fine. You think it a synonym for 'lie'. Even the Greek myths, which were argueably not of devine inspiration were somehow able to convey all of the nuances of human psychology at least 2500 years before psychology became a modern science. A myth can be a powerful medium of conveyance for the deepest secrets of the human psyche ... and perhaps even of secrets beyond the physical world. Men from time to time step out of time and space and then tell us a story about their experience. To toss these works from another world off as 'mere myths' is to dehumanize mankind.

[Aggressive Calvinist]

I'm sad to say it, but I suspect that certain fringe elements of the Christian right lust for a holy war as much as the Taliban.

You have every right to your opinion, but I would be very grateful if you could back up this outrageous statement with facts, links, or references.

Cheers, and thanks.

[undergroundwarrior]

And our ordinances will be greased with pig lard. The enemy will be beheaded and wrapped in a body bag made of pigskin. The head will be buried facing opposite Mecca and the torsoe will be used for pig feed.

This will scare any holy warrior.

[mercy]

I liked your sucinct outlay of the evidences for Jesus as Messiah. I have read and reread McDowells books and have found them helpful in bolstering my 'intellectual' side. Personally I started as a young man with just a feeling or an inkling that there simply MUST be a GOD. In looking over the worlds ancient religions (had to be one of these as my supposed god would have had to be old too) I found Judaism cum Christianity to be simply the most reasonable and the most humane. In really looking into Christianiy I found it to be far and away the best deal on the market as well.

At the time of my conversion ... faith had nothing to do with it. Now faith is my ground of being. I ask myself, would I be better off as an atheist or of any other religion? Nope. Would the world be better place as a scientist driven athiest utopia. No, I think the USSR and Mao's China have definitivly put the lie to that one. So ... I tell myself ... what would be the benefit of accepting my doubts or ceasing to have faith? Non that I can see. Sometimes that's all I have left. A decision to faithe (faith as verb). If I am wrong I will never know it. If I am right, All that Christ is, is mine and He has said it is a very good deal in deed.

[Junior]

I've often wondered about this. First, one must assume the 12 apostles were actual people. This runs into the same situation we find with the historicity of Jesus.

To question the existence of Jesus or the twelve Apostles is to really question the existence of any ancient historical figure. Jesus' life is better documented than any other ancient person.

Actually, it isn't.  Our sole source for the historicity of Jesus is the New Testament.  There are no contemporary Jewish or Roman records dealing with Jesus; all Roman and Greek writings dealing with Christianity were written well after Jesus' death.

Off the top of my head, there's the relatively recent discovery of Peter's tomb and bones directly beneath the main altar in St. Peter's. There is also plenty of archaelogical evidence (i.e. graffitti) of contemporary Roman criticism and mocking of Christians. There is also the contemporary description of Christians by the Roman historian Josephus.

I caught an article on Peter's tomb recently in BAR, or some such magazine.  IIRC, the comment was along the lines that this could be Peter's tomb, but then again it probably wasn't.

Also, there is no contemporary Jewish criticism of the claims of Christians regarding the existence of Jesus' miracles, never mind His existence and the Apostles' existence. If this was a hoax, surely there would be plenty of contemporary criticism. Then there are the corroborating, voluminous writings of the early Church Fathers, those closest to the historical events.

There were dozens of "messiahs" floating around Israel at the time of Jesus, many were performing healings and other miracles.  At the time Jesus came on the scene, there was a major religious revival not only in Israel but throughout the Roman empire.  Lots of folks were performing miracles in the names of their god(s).

Secondly, people give their lives all the time in support of lies -- take, for instance, the belief of Moslem "martyrs" that they'll be feted in paradise if they simply kill themselves and take as many infidels with them as possible.

The difference is that they don't regard it as a lie. They really believe it.

Modern Christians believe in the absolute infallibility of their beliefs, too.  Belief is not a prerequisite for being true.

If the 12 Apostles made up the story, why would they be willing to die for it? How many pranksters are willing to die for their joke?

Once again, we have no proof that the Apostles even existed; they could be the mythical part of what made up most mystery religions of the time.  In the mystery religions of that region and time new initiates were often taught the underlying myths of the religion.  As they progressed through their studies they came to learn these myths were archetypes to transmit the teachings of that religion.  More than one scholar has pointed out that the gospels bear a strong resemblance to the archetype myths of other mystery religions of the time (Mithraism, et al); supposedly as the initiate became more knowledgeable on the tenets of Christianity he would come to see the gospels for what they were -- teaching parables.  Somewhere along the line, though these teaching myths have become, well, gospel.

[Who is George Salt?]

Ever hear of "Christian identity" (also known as Kingdom Identity)?

From the FBI's PROJECT MEGIDDO report:

"Christian Identity also believes in the inevitability of the end of the world and the Second Coming of Christ. It is believed that these events are part of a cleansing process that is needed before Christ’s kingdom can be established on earth. During this time, Jews and their allies will attempt to destroy the white race using any means available. The result will be a violent and bloody struggle -- a war, in effect -- between God’s forces, the white race, and the forces of evil, the Jews and nonwhites. Significantly, many adherents believe that this will be tied into the coming of the new millennium."

"The view of what Armageddon will be varies among Christian Identity believers. Some contend there will be a race war in which millions will die; others believe that the United Nations, backed by Jewish representatives of the anti-Christ, will take over the country and promote a New World Order. One Christian Identity interpretation is that white Christians have been chosen to watch for signs of the impending war in order to warn others. They are to then physically struggle with the forces of evil against sin and other violations of God’s law (i.e., race-mixing and internationalism); many will perish, and some of God’s chosen will be forced to wear the Mark of the Beast to participate in business and commerce. After the final battle is ended and God’s kingdom is established on earth, only then will the Aryan people be recognized as the one and true Israel."

"Christian Identity adherents believe that God will use his chosen race as his weapons to battle the forces of evil. Christian Identity followers believe they are among those chosen by God to wage this battle during Armageddon and they will be the last line of defense for the white race and Christian America. To prepare for these events, they engage in survivalist and paramilitary training, storing foodstuffs and supplies, and caching weapons and ammunition. They often reside on compounds located in remote areas."

Here's a quote from one a Christian Identity follower:

"We are going to build the Kingdom of our God on this continent if we have to turn it into a Bosnia first! Death may find you in front of your one-eyed church of Satan or in the filthy bingo parlors where you worship your devil god, but be sure that you will not escape the consuming fire that is the real baptism of the Holy Ghost, The God of Racial Israel."

The pertinent question seems to be: what have YOU done to stand up to fanatical, fundamentalist Christianity?

[Non-Sequitur]

Then what does it say?

[Non-Sequitur]

We pronounce this Our final sentence: We pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo . . . have rendered yourself vehemently suspected by this Holy Office of heresy, that is, of having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the earth does move, and is not the center of the world...

That is what the Papal court found him guilty of. It's clear what his crime was in their eyes.

[FormerLurker]

But couldn't that be meant in a figurative way? In other words, the night didn't come because the Earth stopped rotating?

[Non-Sequitur]

I don't know. We are told by fundamentalist Christians that the Bible is the literal truth; inerrant word of God. Nothing figurative about it.

[TigerLikesRooster]

RE #121 Myth is what people want to believe. It is not fact. It is one of basic human drive. That I agree. However, it does not make it fact. Human being always want to mentally rearrange the real world into what they like. Sometimes competing versions have to be sorted out in whatever mechanisms. My position is simple: There is a strong drive in most human beings to rearrange the reality into more psychologically satisfying version. They do it even if they may suffer from badly flawed judgements from ditorted world view.

[Who is George Salt?]

Sounds like terrorist language to me.

It is. Their activities to date have been limited to bank robberies and isolated killings, but given time, they will do much, much more.

[Who is George Salt?]

Here's an excerpt from the FBI's Project Megiddo report:

"A relatively new tenet gaining popularity among Christian Identity believers justifies the use of violence if it is perpetrated in order to punish violators of God’s law, as found in the Bible and interpreted by Christian Identity ministers and adherents. This includes killing interracial couples, abortionists, prostitutes and homosexuals, burning pornography stores, and robbing banks and perpetrating frauds to undermine the 'usury system.' " (emphasis added)

[Aristophanes]

Nope. It says nothing there about the Sun revolving around the Earth. That's just you filling in the blanks, buster.

[Non-Sequitur]

OK, if you say so.

[Forgiven_Sinner]

Thanks for the positive comment. Very often I place my thoughts into the maelstrom of opinion here at FR with little hope of affecting anyone.

I started out as a scientific agnostic. I began having doubts about science when I saw that scientists weren't always scientific, but could be biased, opinionated, and unobjective. I began examining religion at that time. I liked the calm faith I read in religious writings, but I couldn't see any reason why I should believe. Then, as I was studying cosmology, the big bang versus the steady state theory, I became absolutely convinced of God's existance. My thinking went, "If the steady state theory is true (this was 1969, when it was still viable), then God must exist to create the hydrogen atoms. If the big band theory is true, God must exist to create the big bang."

This is merely an extension of the "first cause" argument advanced over a thousand years ago, but it was new to me and convincing. I wanted God to exist, but I needed some evidence. Now I had the whole universe as evidence.

Later I realized the very conviction of faith I felt itself was evidence of God's intervention in my life. I had received no religious training and I had no discernable motivation or reason to seek God and place faith in Him. This is more subtle and less convincing to the sceptic, but it is more convincing to me of God's existance.