Replies

I want to echo the question raised by secretagent (#13) leaving Bush out of it. In other words, is their a moderate movement among Muslims? I do not mean a collection of scholars and independent thinkers, who might wishfully believe themselves to be a movement (i.e. most libertarian party members live a day dream that they have a real party in the electoral sense of the word - where as the sad humor of it is that they aren't even close.). If not, is their a real potential for such a movement? And of course, if there is, who are their chief proponents? Finally, should this movement, or potential movement be spoken/written about, and given credit, where ever possible, outside of government channels?

I don't expect you to have all the answers to this question, but any insight into this question (or secretagent's question), I'm sure will be note worthy.

I've been hearing a lot of really bad stuff about Islam recently. As a non-interventionist (temporary war monger), some of the material I've recently been presented with, I'm finding quite disturbing. I do not want to become a permanent war monger. That's one of the reasons I found your post interesting.

Your reply #12 is quite helpful. Thankyou.

As a temporary war-monger myself, I am interested in this question as well. My hastily reached conclusion is this:

To date, the path of the traditionalist, or extreme movement(s) has not been significantly (enough) impeded. That is to say, the methods used, including terrorism, to spread their influence and increase their power have been "successful", and have not resulted in cataclysmic reactions from the West. "Can't we all just get along?" attempts at diplomacy and weak military countermeasures have been ineffective in persuading anyone (I use the term loosely) that "this way lies ruin."

Therefore, I believe that a massive and sustained campaign to destroy the "sponsors" and supporters of this terrorism is needed to provide the "significant emotional event" which could engender a moderate movement of overwhelming size. IMHO.

One other misunderstanding making the rounds these days. Some are talking as though we have to insist on something like pacifism as supposedly the true doctrine of Islam, or that only pacifists aren't our enemies here. This is poppycock, I presume driven by soundbite self-righteousness. Islam is not a pacifist doctrine.

And no major western country is seriously pacifist, either. Some sects, like the Quakers, and some callings, like missionaries, some thinkers, like idealistic theologians - are committed to pacifism. The United States is not; it has a "vital national interest" doctrine instead. The Catholic Church is not; it has a just war doctrine instead. Hypocrasy on this subject at this moment helps absolutely no one.

We don't expect Islam to become Quakerism - and we aren't about to take what happened in New York like Quakers ourselves. Not all struggle is merely metaphorical, for us or for them. But terrorism is something beyond war between states, for it seeks to destroy that which allows states themselves to exist. That being responsible authorities in charge of all use of force from a given part of the earth, wielding that force for vital interests.

Even that is seperate from the larger question about religious tolerance. Our demand that Islam learn the lessons of religious tolerance is not a call from them to become pacifist, and it is something beyond calling on them to renounce and suppression disorganized terrorism. It is instead something applicable both within and between states - even states that do not tolerate terrorism, and even states that do sometimes fight wars with each other.

It is a lesson western civilization learned at great cost in blood and treasure during the early modern period. That religious war is more war than it is religious. That it corrupts consciences, debases religion, can make some states well nigh demonical; and all in all, that it is one of the greatest scourges that human wickedness can inflict on mankind. We hope Islamic civilization can learn this lesson rather more cheaply than we did. And do not relish paying full price to learn it all over again as their instructors.