[JasonC]

One other misunderstanding making the rounds these days. Some are talking as though we have to insist on something like pacifism as supposedly the true doctrine of Islam, or that only pacifists aren't our enemies here. This is poppycock, I presume driven by soundbite self-righteousness. Islam is not a pacifist doctrine.

And no major western country is seriously pacifist, either. Some sects, like the Quakers, and some callings, like missionaries, some thinkers, like idealistic theologians - are committed to pacifism. The United States is not; it has a "vital national interest" doctrine instead. The Catholic Church is not; it has a just war doctrine instead. Hypocrasy on this subject at this moment helps absolutely no one.

We don't expect Islam to become Quakerism - and we aren't about to take what happened in New York like Quakers ourselves. Not all struggle is merely metaphorical, for us or for them. But terrorism is something beyond war between states, for it seeks to destroy that which allows states themselves to exist. That being responsible authorities in charge of all use of force from a given part of the earth, wielding that force for vital interests.

Even that is seperate from the larger question about religious tolerance. Our demand that Islam learn the lessons of religious tolerance is not a call from them to become pacifist, and it is something beyond calling on them to renounce and suppression disorganized terrorism. It is instead something applicable both within and between states - even states that do not tolerate terrorism, and even states that do sometimes fight wars with each other.

It is a lesson western civilization learned at great cost in blood and treasure during the early modern period. That religious war is more war than it is religious. That it corrupts consciences, debases religion, can make some states well nigh demonical; and all in all, that it is one of the greatest scourges that human wickedness can inflict on mankind. We hope Islamic civilization can learn this lesson rather more cheaply than we did. And do not relish paying full price to learn it all over again as their instructors.

[jackbob]

I don't have time right now to reply to the above. But one quick note.

I am currently questioning my own anti-interventionist beliefs. Not just on the immediate crises created by the airlines murders of 9-11, but on Islam as a whole. The question I'm asking myself, is this:

Is Islam actually a large scale, international murder cult (as opposed to being a religion)? And if so, does it pose enough threat to civilization everywhere, that it needs to be eradicated from the earth? And of course, is it reasonably possible to do so?

I honestly do not ask these questions of my own beliefs lightly. I am a radical libertarian, who has generally sided with the Islamic's against the U.S./Israel interests in the past. I want to believe that Islam is/can be a religion, like any other religion. But elsewhere (not on this thread), a good amount of disturbing information about Islam has been coming my way.

I'll be back later to respond to the above replies.