Posted on 09/22/2001 10:00:05 AM PDT by BibChr
Christians are unpopular folks today. I mean by that, anyone who takes seriously biblical truth and biblical principles will find himself on the sharp end of angry stares if we dare speak the truth in the midst of todays national crisis. To what do I refer? America has all of a sudden gotten very religious. There are vigils and candlelight prayer services on every corner. People who hadnt said God except in profanity for years are all of a sudden very pious and reflective. Radio personalities who were focused upon tax cuts or some other political issue on Monday, September 10th are now mulling over the role of evil in our world. The past week has turned the landscape upside down in many ways, to be sure. Lest anyone think this new religiosity is a reason for rejoicing for Christians, it most surely is not. Oh yes, we are hearing old Christian hymns being sung. Ostensibly Christian churches were full this past Lords day. But there is no such thing as partial Christianity, nor is there any such thing as a Christianity that stands side by side with Islam, or Judaism, or Buddhism, and says, We worship one God under many names. And surely, there is no Christianity that does not speak of repentance from sin. The new religiosity of America has two basic foundational pillars: there is one God, unknown, but addressable under any variety of religious epithets, who has revealed absolutely nothing of objective value regarding His will regarding worship or human behavior; and second, this God has no wrath; knows nothing of sin or judgment; and hence, any person who dares to say that God would punish a person, or a nation, is a glowing heretic to the new American religiosity. The problem is easily seen: Christians believe, fundamentally, of necessity, that there is one true God. This true God is not Allah. This true God is not Krishna. This true God is not the god of Joseph Smith or Buddha or the Sikhs or the Bahais. Our God went to great lengths to differentiate Himself from all the gods of the peoples and religions that surrounded His ancient people, and that for a purpose He Himself proclaimed: He seeks true worship, worship based upon a knowledge of who He is in reality, based upon His revelation to man. He does not grant to man the freedom to make images of Him, to worship Him in a manner that pleases the creature rather than the Creator. God is particular about His worship. His worship is intimately, vitally connected to truth. Without truth, there is no worship of the Christian God. And the truth revealed by the Christian God in the Scriptures is without question when it comes to the matter of His law, sin, rebellion, punishment, wrath, and judgment. One of the most amazing things to observe is the willingness shown by evangelicals to jump right onto the we shall never utter a word about wrath or sin or punishment bandwagon. Is the remnant so small that almost no voices will be raised to cry out against this foolishness? To withhold the truth about sin and judgment out of fear of mans opinions and feelings is to make the cross of Jesus Christ a travesty! There is no cross, there is no sacrifice, where there is no sin, no offense that demands forgiveness be wrought through His perfect sacrifice! The person who refrains from speaking of sin and judgment to win a person over is doing so through unfaithfulness to the very gospel itself! And to what has such a person been won over? Where is the gospel when there is no sin to be forgiven at Calvary? But it is right here that the new American religiosity clamps its hands over its ears and refuses to hear. America wants Gods blessing. America wants God to protect us from more horrific visions of airliners flying purposefully, relentlessly into our national monuments. We want God to be near us as we board our aircraft. We want Him to protect us from the horror of thinking about what it was like when the towers collapsed. We want Him to guide our military and allow us to flex our muscle and launch our missiles with impunity. We want a blessing God, a caring God, who simply panders to our wants and whims. This is the God of the new American religiosity. But what America does not want is a God who is holy, who is just, and who has revealed His will concerning how we, His creatures, are to live. America is a land soaked in blood. We glory in violence. We are so selfish, so bound in our avarice, fornication, and sexual lust, that we murder our own offspring in the womb (or at birth as in partial-birth infanticide). Our hands are covered in blood, and yet we think lighting a candle and lifting them up while mumbling God Bless America is going to bring Gods favor? Listen to the words of God to another nation that likewise was religious but refused to hear the word of repentance: So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. (Isaiah 1:15). Is America so arrogant, so utterly self-absorbed, so diseased by religious liberalism and philosophical subjectivism, that she thinks she can ignore all of history itself and demand from God blessings when she refuses to repent of her evils? Do we really need to be reminded that Planned Parenthood has killed more little children in our land in the week since the attacks than died in the attacks themselves? Are we so blind? Surely the scourge of abortion would be enough to warrant the unleashing of the wrath of God, but there is so much more! We are a nation on a crusadea crusade to wipe from our history books every vestige of our former religious past. The religion of scientism, with its chief idol in the person of Darwin, has become enshrined in our very governmental policies. There is no creator, we are told, to express His law for us in the first place. We want to banish God and His law from our courtrooms, our schools, our every public institution. If God says it is wrong, we celebrate it. Every form of sexual debauchery is found in the land. The airwaves are filled with programs that exalt fornication and adultery. Major film stars are lauded for the most sinful lifestyles. Homosexuality is not only turned into an acceptable lifestyle, it is made a political right, a political force, a test-case for being properly tolerant. The list goes on and on and on. The widow and orphan is oppressed, while the nation indulges in every creature comfort, sits back in its luxury, looks about upon the bounty of the land, and says, Ah, what the labor of my own hands, my own intelligence, my own insight, has accomplished. Religious liberals may mock our literalistic reading of the Bible at this point, preferring to simply label us fundamentalists and ignorant, but the fact of the matter is, they know they could never win a scholarly debate on whether the Bible actually teaches that these things are sins which must, inevitably, bring Gods judgment upon a people. They know that is exactly what the Bible teaches. They are just embarrassed by it, and hence seek to suppress that truth. As I said, Christians who believe the Bible are an unpopular lot today. If they speak in accordance with the Word they may well find themselves being called "unpatriotic" and "judgmental.". In fact, given that the new orthodoxy demands of us the confession Everyone is Gods child over against such clear biblical teaching as John 1:12 (remember how Christians refused to say Caesar is lord and died as a result?), we must be ready to count the cost in engaging in formal, cultural heresy by speaking the truth. We need to realize: this new American religiosity can take on the same kind of fanatic zeal that kept the hi-jackers hands steady all the way to their end. May God grant His people the strength to proclaim loudly Gods demands upon a wicked nation, and may He be pleased to bring repentance and revival in a land where darkness reigns.
Are you implying there was a version earlier than Mohammed?
Regarding the James/Lynn debate:
The host congregation for the debate was so distressed by the disrespectful conduct of the debate, that they asked for an apology from White.
http://members.aol.com/presbycmoriches/debate.htm
Dan
Dan
bump
You have been very cordial in your replies and for that I thank you.
"I accept your beliefs and the reasons you hold them."
I don't understand this statement.You accept my belief? Wouldn't you then claim to be a christian?I'll assume you mean you accept my right to believe what I believe.You accept my reasons? I disagree.
ie: "Of course it's your good right to think so but I can tell you that this is not going to work and not just because this has been done over and over again with no satisfactorily result but because religious teachings/holy books are always subject to interpretation. Therefore if you're skilled enough you can make them mean whatever you want them to mean."
So you see,you do not accept them.However,say I put the bible away and explain to you how I see the world and you decide wether it lines up with what you see?
You also did not address my reasons for believing....you went straight past them as though they were non-existant and that more than once.You now say you accept them.....but in reality you don't.
"In science that's of course an other issue and it's done all the time because that's the way science works but concerning religions that's always a futile venture."
That's a bow you have drawn past the breaking point.It simply isn't true,at least not in the absolute sense you have stated it.
"No, I don't believe I am immune to this, I'm a human after all but I'm aware that it can happen. Therefore I try to question everything I think I'm really convinced of. And I don't see that doubts are strong held convictions. So I just want to make clear, before any misconceptions arise, that I am "not convinced that any god(s) exist" and not "convinced that god(s) don't exist" (and no, it's not the same)."
It's good that you question what you believe,not many do.However,I gave you a reason why I believe what I believe and surely (if you claim to be rational)you must compare it with what you see to determine wether it lines up with reality or not yes?
"I hope you realize that "not being convinced" cannot be a strong held conviction"
What if a person doesn't want to be convinced?.
You are right when you say these things can go on forever.You can site me a ton of web-sites that argue that what I believe is not a sufficient description of reality and I can do likewise.There are some things that can be argued almost endlessly it seems....provided certain things are kept out of the arena of discussion.
Let me put this to you as another reason for beleiving what I believe.
In the field of human competition,there is almost always the need for an umpire...somebody the contestants mentally assent to as being the highest authority in the game.The higher the competion factor and the more there is at stake...the greater the need for the umpire.If the contestants already know the rules and conditions of play (and we'll assume that most who compete are mentally competent enough to understand them) then why can't we simply rely on reason to rule and dispense with the uneccessary intrusion of an umpire?
Isn't it true to say that if anyone has an agenda,then their reasoning can be suspect?
Imagine what might happen if a society adopts (or has it forced upon them) a world-view in which the competition factor simply kept multiplying...(let alone the actual stakes)while at the very same time the reality (and therefore the mental assent) of the umpire kept diminishing?
How long do you believe the Superbowl game would last if the umpire became irrelevant to the players?...the answer to that goes a long way to explaining why the world is like it is.
Assuming the game would continue regardless,eventually those who hold the most physical strength would win,wether that be money,political power,military power,the loudest mouth etc etc etc.In the end numbers would determine what was acceptable....we might not like that (especially considering the 'herd' element)but it is the reality of the situation.
I'll leave it up to you as to wether this lines up with the real world or not.
"No, I don't believe I am immune to this, I'm a human after all..."
LOL...Aren't we all!
Wouldn't it be fair to say that to best be in a position to see reality as it is,warts and all,we need to be in a position where we had no sub-concious agendas lurking around?(wether that's actually possible or not is another matter,but you get my drift yes?)
Roman's 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith(trusting/leaning fully on what Jesus Christ has done through His crucifiction AND resurrection),that it might be by grace(the unmerited favour of God),to the end that the promise might be sure..."
I do believe the bible because it is the best description of the world I see and in particular because of it's profound understanding of the human race.
Thanks again for your reply friend.
I have been candid with you BMCDA,and maybe a little blunt.However I think you will agree that if the bible actually is the message of the creator to His created then we cannot posibly hope to entirely comprehend the scope of what is happening...but we surely must try.
To that end....
"For God so loved the world,that He gave His only begotten Son,that whoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)
May God bless you BMCDA
and may God bless America.
Depending upon how familiar he is with those Scriptures he quoted, he may or may not have known that whoever prepared the text of what he was to say, left anything out. I'm fairly certain he probably _trusted_ those with *credentials* who claim to teach God's Word, to supply the texts which would be faithful to the Scriptures.
It was deliberately left out, however, of BOTH presentations .... probably by the same "politically correct" speech writer, who may not even be a "professing" Christian.
Along those same lines, I happened to have my car radio on the night the Hollywood types held their telethon. The man who began the telethon with the "Pledge of Allegiance", deliberately left out the one nation "under God" part. That's when I shut it off.
BTTT
I kind of think that people who get too obssesed [sic] with avoding [sic] religeon [sic] end up behaving just as bad as the Taliban! Once you imerse [sic] yourself deep in irreligeon [half-sic], you have no principle beyond your own prejudices, and you start to think that your irreligeon [half-sic] is superior to Jesus.
Dan
The commentary does not concern who was right or wrong in the debate, but rather the breach of debate protocol, and apparently good manners, by White and his fans. Intentional disrespect to an invited guest is just plain bad form. Civility, especially in a church when debating another minister, is not too much to ask. You make the apostacy accusation very easily. I guess you set that threshold very low.
Dan
"The Winner [of the Skull and Crossbones Award] is James White! for changing the grace of God into a "license for immorality" (Jude 4) with the following statement:...
What White thinks is the gospel of grace is really a license for immorality, which Christians are to contend against (Jude 3,4)."
link
There seems to be very little discussion of this part of the thread title. It deserves better, certainly better than I can render, but...
My take on repentance makes a distinction between self-hatred and sincere regret for one's actions or lack of action. God forgives those who repent. In other words, your participation is necessary in the process of forgiveness.
As a nation, where we've been wrong, we should repent...no we MUST repent to be granted God's grace. It has to happen. If we've done His will, He knows, too.
Do we go off on a "We're so bad, God could never forgive us." funk? No. Repentance and forgiveness are both an end and a new beginning. Realization of error and sin should lead to repentance. Repentance should lead to a new heart that strives to do the things expected of us. "Love the Lord with all our heart, our soul and mind....and love our neighbor as ourselves."
God keeps score, but we're the one's running up the total. He is merciful and willing to forgive...if we're willing to admit it when we're wrong. The need for repentance existed before the WTC attack, it exists now, it will exist tomorrow. We're just not perfect. So, until we are, repentance will be a necessity. Thanks for reading.
No more links! I'm depressed enough! /c8-
Dan
Pray for GW and NY!
God Bless America
It isn't hard.
I guess I'll just keep going to my old church, which is doubtless also apostate, and leave the theological bickering to those who enjoy it.
You say prayer-warriors. Actually, I think (Peretti and Charismaticism to the contrary notwithstanding) Satan is not terribly intimidated by prayer.
But what he hates is Bible-warriors! Remember, when he tried His moves on the Lord Jesus, Satan was not overcome by naked divine power, nor was he repelled by prayer! How did our Lord respond to Satan?
"It is written!""It is written!"
"It is written!"
"It is written!"
Remember, too, that Paul identified only one weapon in the Christian's armory: the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD! (Ephesians 6:17b).
One brother's encouragement.
Amen!
"There seems to be very little discussion of this part of the thread title."
True enough...sorry Dan.
However, I do believe I am trying to help BMCDA (and hopefully some lurkers)'change his mind' so I assume Dan will indulge me.
grace and peace to you all
God bless
ps:BMCDA I won't be near a 'puter for 4-5 days so I will be a while getting back to you.take care friend.
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