Posted on 09/17/2001 11:55:01 PM PDT by kattracks
Edited on 07/12/2004 3:47:02 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
No I am not ignorant, I know what was going on, and that Serbs were victims of killings and ethnic cleansing themselves. But the problem I have here, is that most of the posts here suggest as though they were the only real victim, and the denial (and justification) of attrocities against Muslims and other non-Serbs just intensifies that mentality. And that's where the BIG problems lies, and why I disagree so much with you and others.
And I haven't witnessed any change in such mentality since I first joined FR. It is obvious that most of you sympathize with victims of a particular side, while feel no need to feel the same for those that were victims themselves, just that they were of the "wrong" nationality or religion. And that is not just the case with Bosnia or Kosovo, but overall. The bias is very much apparent.
It is one thing to be able to back up selected facts of your choosing, but when you use those facts to give credibility, by association, to such claims as:
more civilians were killed than troops
when A) you can't prove your point about how many civilians died, and B) have no clue as to how many JNA soldiers died* you are doing yourself no credit.
Don't worry about guessing which category to try to put me in, Kate. Spend your time doing something useful like fact checking your posts before hitting "Post Reply".
*If I'm mistaken here, and the Yugoslav command has made you privy to their casualties from Allied Force, please share with the rest of us. = )
And Rambouillet would have removed Milosevic's ability to herd Kosovar Albanians around the province. (duh - again)
Got any better thought out questions?
(P.s. If you're flying an American flag on your home page, we started bombing, get it? Kind of funny how your name pays homage to the loss of one of our aircraft, but then patriotism is a confusing concept for some, isn't it.)
As for the first sentence I totally agree. But as for KLA, how different is what they are doing from what the paramilitary forces of Mladic, Karadzic, Martic and Arkan were doing? Were their killings and bombings more humane? Did the people they kill feel less pain? They were terrorists themselves. And that you have people here (not you!) calling KLA terrorists on one side, which they undoubtly are, while on the other hand even idolizing people like Arkan or Karadzic, calling them patriots and even finding no problem in the actions of those forces, then we have a big problem.
I doubt that many people here would agree with me, they disagree with me exactly because of the problem I pointed out. They don't see anything wrong in what Serb military and paramilitary forces did in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo, as they were supposed to be only fighting against terrorism (Kosovo), freeing Serb land (Bosnia,Croatia) and fighting for Serb rights. And the fact that not only Racak is denied, but Srebrenica, concentration camps and Vukovar are called a lie, well that just adds a whole new dimension to it. Along with the justifications and excuses (even finding those in WW2)
I can only wonder why there are people ready to deny things that apparently happened, and have this feeling of self-righteousness and urge to deny anything that has to with crimes of Serb forces. Is it about religion? Ideology? Mentality?
Whatever it is, I don’t like it and can’t accept it. It certainly isn’t about the truth or fairness. Something else much likely.
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (CNN) -- Yugoslavia charged that a NATO airstrike hit a bus Saturday near Luzane north of Pristina, killing at least 34 people, including 15 children, and injuring five.
The civilian death toll would represent one of the highest since NATO began its air assault against Yugoslavia more than one month ago...
After the pilot had released his weapon, the bus drove onto the bridge, according to the statement from NATO headquarters in Brussels.
Serbian television reported there were as many as 60 or more casualties.
CNN's Alessio Vinci was taken to the scene and said the bus was split in half - one part left on the bridge the bus was crossing and a second part blown about 30 meters away.
"There are bodies all over here," said Vinci. "There are burned body parts ... The wreck of the bus is still smoldering." He said that as he walked around the scene, he could hear jets overhead and see bombing in the distance.
Vinci said he did not see any evidence that directly linked the incident to NATO missiles. He said there was no crater or evidence of a weapon.
However, a farmer told reporters that he heard jets overhead, followed by a loud explosion when the bus was hit.
The farmer said no Yugoslav military forces were in the area. The vehicle was a commuter bus carrying people from Nis to Pristina, said authorities...
Yugoslavian officials say NATO airstrikes have killed more than 1,000 civilians. Reports of other incidents include: April 12 -- A NATO missile targeting a bridge strikes a passenger train in southeastern Serbia, killing at least 17.
April 14 -- Seventy-five ethnic Albanian refugees die in an attack on a convoy near the southwestern Kosovo town of Djakovica. NATO acknowledges a misfire "may have caused damage to a civilian vehicle and unintentional harm to civilian lives."
April 23 -- Sixteen employees of Serbian Television and Radio die in a NATO strike on its headquarters.
Gee Joan, you must be referring to incidents 41 (Luzane), 15 (Bistrica), 19 (Djakovica), and 30 (RTS) from my oft referred to Appendix A: Incidents Involving Civilian Deaths in Operation Allied Force.
I'm sorry, you were saying something?
Since you have no idea why I selected my screen name, it shows that, once again, you are spouting off about something you have no knowledge of!
Patriotism is confusing to some. Some believe that "My country, right or wrong" is patriotism. Others believe that that it is more patriotic to oppose an evil. As some Germans fought against Hitler, I fought against the evil that clinton represented.
Yugoslavia's war against terrorism was harsh. We shall now see how harsh America's war against terrorism is.
We know that ix42's "war/terror bombing" against civilians was brutal.
And I still don't - thanks for the enlightening post.
So you have no problems believing what Yugo officials say about civilian casualties. But when Bosnian officials say that 200.000 people were killed in Bosnia, it's a big lie, right? Yes, I thought so. Ones tell only the truth, while the other only lie (Muslim propaganda?).
Double standards Joan?
What is the military/civilian ratio of this number, and how many of those were killed by Croats and Muslims in their war against Serbs, and Croats and Muslims against each other.
Whereas Yugoslavs never killed NATO civilians yet NATO killed theirs.
Besides, Serbs have said that 95,000 Serbs were killed in Bosnia.
I'm not discounting it, though it could be high. But as it was practically a 4-way war - Croats & Muslims against the Serbs, Croats against Muslims, and Muslims against Muslims (Izetbegovic's vs. Fikret's), and then mercenaries joining in all the different sides - and even switching sides (I believe some Russians left the Serbs for the other side) - and of course Mujahadeen fighters - you can't just punish one side (bombing the Serbs) and be considered fair.
Nothing, I was talking about the KLA not making a comparison with the past or other groups. The next time you walk around the streets of where ever you live in Slovenia and see a heroin addict pasted out because of KLA heroin trafficking, just remember my attempt to provide you with first hand information about the KLA. But of course you continue to impress yourself with generalities without trying to understand what others and their experience are trying to say to you. Your obviously to sexy for your shirt. Grow up and pull the wax out of your head, maybe send your future posts to yourself and then you will be really impressed.
It's like looking for someone to blame on everything bad happening around even though that person/group has nothing to do with it. Then I could blame Milosevic for every single killed civilian (Serbs including)in ex Yugoslavia, say it was his policy of killing that brought others to kill and rape, that he caused it all. Of course that would be absurd and ridicolous. Just as your accusations concerning KLA.
There's one very big difference here, so big that you've probably overlooked it on purpose.
The Serbs have invited foreign media to look at all of their civilian casualties, and can have other countries confirm that more than 1,000 civilians were indeed killed by the Nato bombing.
On the other hand, the BiH gov't has not produced 200,000 bodies, even though they've been looking for more than 5 years. I don't know how many bodies have been discovered in Bosnia, but I am assuming it's not even 50,000, including both civilians and soldiers, Serb, Croat, or Muslim. If the BiH govt ever shows me 200,000 corpses, then I will believe their claims. Until then, I will believe they're bullshitting.
And what's your ratio of that total of KLA/mercenaries vs. civilians.
There are also well over a thousand missing Serbs, many since NATO took over the province, so I guess those should be counted as dead because that is what you do when there are supposed missing Kosovo Albanians.
The only three identified buried in Serbia, do not fit the bill because
1. They were mercenaries of the "Atlantic Brigade"
2. They were alive after the bombing stopped for at least a month.
3. They weren't killed in Kosovo, but after invading non-Kosovo Serbia. AND, a man who new them said they refused to give their arms to NATO after the war.
How many Serbs were killed by NATO attacks on Bosnia?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.