Christians and the Jihad

vanity | 16 Sept 2001 | self

[The_Reader_David]

In the two days following the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon and the Phyrric victory of the heroic passengers of Flt. 93, I made posts to several threads (principally ones with folk advocating turing Afghanistan into "a glass parking lot") posts suggesting that the nuclear destruction of the capitals of nations supporting with the terror attack would probably suffice.

One of my fellow Orthodox Christian Freepers rebuked me privately (as well he should) and asked me to retract my call. Moved by this, and by two sermons by my bishop, I do so now. However, I do so with a heavy heart, and have delayed doing so until this afternoon because I have not changed the underlying reason for those posts.

It was not a desire for vengance, a desire to see "their innocents" die as ours did, which moved me to write as I did, but a dreadful, gnawing certainty that victory against this foe cannot be achieved without horrific bloodshed. A dreadful feeling that, in the long run, to strike hard in the beginning would be more humane and more merciful still haunts me.

We face a foe armed with modern weapons, and cunning enough to beat the plowshares of modern commerce into weapons in the space of a morning. We face a foe whose mind is decidedly pre-modern and alien to what is normal to Christendom either historically, or now in its secular decay. We face a foe who believes that divine help is at their back, and that death in the cause, particularly if one kills the enemy (even non-combattants defined to be enemies) is a great good. We face a foe willing to attack without defiance sent.

The last time we faced such a foe, it was Imperial Japan. The pre-modernin Shintoist ideology motivated the kamikaze, the attack on Pearl Harbor, and the rape of Nanking, even as the literalist reading of the Koran motivates suicide bombers who kill non-combattants in sneak attacks today.

We know how that war was ended. On this board, I trust we are all familiar with the ratio between the dead at Nagasaki and Hiroshima and the expected casualties in an invasion of the Japanese homeland. In case not I will remind you: we expected to loose 10 times as many as we killed, and to kill a similar number each Japanese soldiers and civilians to our own losses. Some believe this, together with the fact that these were "defended cities" containing military targets, suffice to justify Truman's action. Others believe Truman was a war-criminal, who went untried because only the loosers are put on trial.

I would invite all Christians coming from non-pacifist Christian traditions, particularly those which venerate some warrior saints (Holy Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism*, Anglicanism) or are strong in nations with a martial tradition (Presbyterians--Scotland, Lutherans--German,...) to discuss appropriate measures for opposing this foe.

.

.

*Those familiar with my posts on religious discussions will note that I have dropped my preference for refering to the adherents of the Papal Throne of Rome as "Latins". I will still not go so far as to give them their prefered title of "Catholics", since I profess the catholicity of the Holy Orthodox Church. I will, however, in the interest of the unity of Christendom in the face of the Islamic foe, use the generally used term applied to them by Christians of other confessions.

[Romulus]

It is vital that Orthodox Christians get out the word that Arabism and Islam are not identical. Arab and other Eastern patriarchs (including the Latin Patriarch in Jerusalem) must condemn these atrocities in ringing and unmistakeable terms. They must erect a firewall, utterly separating themselves and their churchs from any persons applauding terrorism.

[Humidston]

.....The first thing one should do, IMHO, is get down on our knees and confess our sins. America is still a Godly nation? America is still beloved in God's eyes? True, we're better than all the rest, but we have a whole lot of improving to do! We should start with ourselves.

II Chronicles 7:14

[The_Reader_David]

I heartily agree with your post. What's more, if Patriarch Ignatius were to forcefully denounce the attacks, it might put some steel in our Archbishop.

[Romulus]

Does almost every business in your area have "God bless America" on their marquee like they do in mine?

Everywhere.

I wonder whether the unwilling entry of America into a war of religion (which this is whether we think of it as such or not) will lead to a revival of faith and an end to the corrosive secularization of our society.

I would like to think so, but I doubt it. Grace does not proceed from blood-lust and unthinking anger. We cannot and will not achieve justification simply by giving rein to base passion.

Consider this, from the English Catholic novelist Evelyn Waugh:

Is there any place that is free from evil? It is too simple to say that only the Nazis wanted war. These communists wanted it too. It was the only way in which they could come to power. Many of my people wanted it, to be revenged on the Germans, to hasten the creation of the national state. It seems there was a will to war a death wish, everywhere. Even good men thought that their private honour would be satisfied by war. They could assert their manhood by killing and being killed. They would accept hardship in recompense for having been selfish and lazy. Danger justified privilege.

It's this death wish that I most fear.

[don-o]

One of my fellow Orthodox Christian Freepers rebuked me privately (as well he should) and asked me to retract my call. Moved by this, and by two sermons by my bishop, I do so now.

It takes courage and humility to do such anytime, and especially on this forum. Axios, David.

I was eaten up with anger for the first 24 hours. And I said some things to people that I still need to retract. I just did not post.

I was pointed out to me today, as I confessed my own hatred and anger, that it is easy to beat the war drums, and wrap ones passions in the flag. It is hard to embrace the Cross, because there is suffering there. There is self denial there. There is unfathomable love there. There is true victory there.

I was challenged by a mention of what a certain minister had counselled, which was told as "Pray, then go kill people." Question was asked, "Would Jesus have ever said such a thing?"

I am posting before I read a single response, as I am moved by The Reader David's righteous retraction. I will be interested to see if we can get a decent dialogue going on the proper Christian response in the present emergency.

[aposiopetic]

I don't know the appropriate measures for opposing this foe, but we can start (as I know you do) with prayer and fasting.To address the larger issue which you implicitly raise, we must ask ourselves why we oppose this foe. I believe that, if we must act, we must do so to deprive the foe of the ready capacity to harm innocents. I say the 'ready' capacity because the foe will always, at least in the near term, be able to harm innocents in some ways. But we should (dare I say must? might it indeed be our duty to?) make it more difficult for the foe to cause such harm.

[The_Reader_David]

Sorry to run from my own thread, but I must attend to family matters. I will look in when I may.

On Friday, our cathedral prayed a service of Orthodox Christian prayers for a nation at war. We prayed the Trisagion Prayers of Mercy for the victims on Saturday at our Mission.

Pray, fast, and repent of your sins.

[don-o]

My chief prayer is that we continue to be the good guys, lest, even as we achieve a righteous victory over our worldly enemies, we be tricked into serving the death-loving aims of our worst and most implacable Enemy.

What must be faced that as Sholtzhnetsyn pointed out "...the dividing line between good and exil cuts through the heart of every human being..."

We are the "good guys" who have allowed abortion on demand to destroy 40,000,000 million innocents.

We are the "good guys" who most recently enabled Albanian Moslems to lay waste to Kosovo and many Christian churches and monasteries.

We said prayers of repentance after Divine Liturgy today. That is keeping with II Chronicles 7:14.

[don-o]

</marquee up></marquee up></marquee up></marquee up> bold off

[Migraine]

It's becoming apparent that Muslims and their governments around the world are being held hostage by Radical Islam. While there may be cause for resenting the U.S. and it's allies, most Muslims would rather seek peaceful redress of grievances through negotiation and compromise. Problem is, I keep hearing about Saudi money going under the table to terror groups, same with Kuwaiti, UAE, Egyptian, and who knows how many other countries' money. Then, I hear about funds raised in US mosques. And I see the celebrations and read about the ones which have been censored. I also know that the terrorists and radical Muslims live in the Muslim world, and are never handed over for prosecution. So, they're definitely all in it together, make no mistake about it. We are at war with Islam (I should say, Islam is at war with us, while we seem content to tilt at windmills -- because that seems more palatable somehow, more "thinkable". Wow!)

[patent]

Our goal should not be vengance, but victory. We must fight a righteous war (the notion of a "holy" war is a Muslim lie), but how?

I agree with the above. Before we enter into calls for specific actions, especially calls for nuclear war, we need to know more than we do now. At least more than the public does. Even presuming present beliefs are accurate, and that its Bin Laden and the Taliban we want, nuking them is a bit extreme. There are so many in that country that want the Taliban out, and who are fighting to make that happen. To kill them along with the Taliban would be a grave injustice, and would only further the Satanic effects of the WTC bombing. To respond appropriately we need to keep in mind that Bin Laden and the Taliban aren’t our true enemies here, they only front for him. If they did this, they need to be removed as self defense for the next time, but we must be just in how we act.

Prayer and fasting are the order of the day. For the victims, our leaders, and our combatants. We have a hard road ahead, but Justice is patient. It will have its day.

*Those familiar with my posts on religious discussions will note that I have dropped my preference for refering to the adherents of the Papal Throne of Rome as "Latins". I will still not go so far as to give them their prefered title of "Catholics", since I profess the catholicity of the Holy Orthodox Church. I will, however, in the interest of the unity of Christendom in the face of the Islamic foe, use the generally used term applied to them by Christians of other confessions.

Hey, it’s a good start!

Dominus Vobiscum

patent  +AMDG

[patent]

I have been reading Jeremiah this week. Jeremiah was not a team player. In the hour of crisis, Jeremiah declined to play the booster. He did not preach "Don't worry; be happy"; instead he condemned the sinful ways of God's people, and was for his trouble was deemed a traitor. Even though the Lord eventually saw to the destruction of Babylon, in his wisdom and providence he did not forbear first to employ them as a chastisement to a people gone astray. Looking at this week's pictures of a desolate lower Manhattan, I could not dismiss from my mind the biblical Lamentation for the desolate Jerusalem.

Hard words, but true.

To address the larger issue which you implicitly raise, we must ask ourselves why we oppose this foe. I believe that, if we must act, we must do so to deprive the foe of the ready capacity to harm innocents. I say the 'ready' capacity because the foe will always, at least in the near term, be able to harm innocents in some ways. But we should (dare I say must? might it indeed be our duty to?) make it more difficult for the foe to cause such harm.

Also very true.

Dominus Vobiscum

patent  +AMDG

[John Locke]

I do not know what opinions the Greek Church may have of the events at Fatima (the same name as the daughter of the Prophet, BTW. Hmmm.) in 1917

Not a coincidence. Fatima was the daughter of the last Moslem ruler of Portugal, and was indeed named after the daughter of the Prophet. In adulthood, she converted to Christianity and married a local Christian landowner, who renamed the village of his birth in her honor. Hence, "Fatima".

[The_Reader_David]

As an Eastern Christian, I don't think much of your Jerusalem Cross. I also fear that we become too like our enemy if we proclaim automatic salvation to those who die in battle against them. The Eastern Patriarchs pointedly refuse the request of Emperor Heraclitus to make such a pronouncement in the war with the Persians which recaptured the Holy Cross. (A war I often cite as the only possible counter-example to Orthodox Christians never launching an offensive war of religion--of course I also note that the war would have been waged on secular grounds alone to stablize the Empire's eastern frontier.)

The Troparion of the Holy Cross which we have been singing since Friday has a different ring to it this year, closer to what it must have felt like for those living on the borders of the Empire when the Jihad began:

O God save Thy people and bless thine inheritance, granting to Thy people victory over all their enemies. And by the power of the Cross protect Thy community.

[SoothingDave]

Does almost every business in your area have "God bless America" on their marquee like they do in mine?

Thought provoking as always, David. Not only are businesses here wrapping themselves in the flag, my ride this morning on the PA Turnpike found the large electronic signs (used to warn of traffic congestion or construction) displaying "God Bless America."

The ACLU has so far remained silent.

I understand the need at times to "speak the common language" even if it pains you. You can call me "Latin" anytime. :-)

SD

[don-o]

I understand the need at times to "speak the common language" even if it pains you.

I think I know what you mean, but if the "common language" is bathed in bloodlust, what is a Christian to do about that?"

I have felt myself a most peculiar person since the shock wore off. I owe a witness to my fellow workers, who observed my sinful raving as the horror unfolded. The Orthodox bishops have responded as they should.

Statements such this are helping.

To the Faithful Flock of the Dioceses of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia Within the United States of America

During the morning of Tuesday, 29 August/11 September, terrorists overpowered the pilots and crew of four passenger jets and crashed them into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City and the Pentagon, near Washington, D.C. In so doing they intentionally killed everyone on board the planes, including themselves, and many thousands of innocent lives in the buildings they destroyed.

These horrific acts of terrorism have by their savagery and audacity instantly wrought a profound change in American society. Everywhere, the American people are weighed down by the magnitude of the loss of life, filled with indignation at those who have committed these senseless acts and their supporters abroad, and newly aware that much that they have taken for granted in their lives must now undergo a fundamental change.

Regrettably, we hear repeated cries for revenge and retribution. To these the Orthodox must respond with the words of divine Scripture: "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" (Rom. 12: 19). Let us also not forget the words of our Savior, said of those who were putting Him to death, as He endured the excruciating pain of His brutal crucifixion: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Lk. 32: 34).

Beloved children in our Savior, let us use these sad days for serious introspection. Speaking to His disciples of the fall of another tower, in which lives were likewise lost, Jesus called His followers to examine their lives, and repent. He said: "Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Lk. 13: 4-5).

Many search the Scriptures to see if these be the last times which were foretold, and see "wars, and rumors of wars" as signs that this is so. Be this so or not, let us repent as He urges us, and dedicate the remaining time of our lives to the acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

Aware of how swiftly death came upon the many thousands who perished in the recent disaster, let us use the time remaining to us to acquire the virtues and to do good to our neighbors, so that they may marvel and say: "See what men of love these Orthodox Christians are!" Beloved, let us dedicate ourselves to this goal, and not be dissuaded from the straight and narrow path which leads to it.

Thus, let us begin by entreating God in our private prayers, that He have mercy upon the victims of this tragedy, and more especially upon the families and loved ones they have left behind. And let us also offer Him fervent plea, that He direct the leaders of this great country, that, guided by His wisdom, in days to come they may make their crucial decisions with prudence, dispassion and circumspection, so that amid peace and tranquility "we may work out our own salvation in fear and trembling" (Phil. 2: 12).

Laurus, Archbishop of Syracuse & Trinity,
Deputy of the First Hierarch
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops -

[The_Reader_David]

Thank you for the sober words from your hierarchs.

The clergy of the Antiochian Archdiocese have been directed by our Metropolitan PHILIP to include in the Great Ektenia the petition "That He will grant them victory over all enemies" following the petition for the President, civil authorities and armed forces. In our usage this petition is said only in time of war.

As I said before: victory, not vengance, a righteous war, not a holy war.

[Wm Bach]

How many more innocents will be targeted SPECIFICALLY if we do not strike back even at the risk of killing innocents accidentally?

Inaction is the greatest evil. We target the enemy as best we can and strike back intelligently, mercilessly, and completely. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.