Posted on 09/15/2001 11:27:05 PM PDT by freedom_from_socialism
| From the Quran 2:120: “Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, Islâmic Guidance is the only Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of Knowledge, then you would have against Allâh neither any protector nor helper.” 3:56: “As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers." 3:85: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” 3:118: “O you who believe! Take not as your helpers or friends those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the verses if you understand.” 3:178: “And let not the disbelievers think that Our postponing of their punishment is good for them. We postpone the punishment only so that they may increase in sinfulness. And for them is a disgracing torment.” 5:14: “And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection, and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.” 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the wrongdoers.” 5:73: “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no god but Allâh. And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.” 8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone...” 9:23: “O you who believe! Take not for supporters your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the wrong-doers.” 9:29: “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” 9:34: “O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the Jewish rabbis and the Christian monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder men from the Way of Allâh. And those who hoard up gold and silver, and spend it not in the Way of Allâh -- announce unto them a painful torment.” 9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.” Quran, 9:29: “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”. |
That's right. I cannot repeat enough that Muhammad himself was an Islamic fundamentalist. He was not a 'moderate'. Our enemies are violent racists who mean to impose on every other culture, including ours, seventh-century Arabian culture in its political and legal expression, family affairs, dietary laws, clothing, religious rites, etc. I hope our fellow Americans understand that.
Cordially,
I don't have any quarrel with what you say, though I'd have to read the Koran, before I'd come to a final judgement about its teaching. And I don't defend what's done in most Islamic countries today. I was simply pointing out that other scriptures have passages that moderns would consider repellent. Citing ten carefully selected passages from a very large book doesn't necessarily convey the essence of the whole book.
It would take a lot of knowledge to interpret these passages, and the same is true of Bible passages. Some of them deal with pagan tribes, and recommend that Muslims deal with these tribes harshly, as the Israelites dealt with the Canaanites, or other peoples with gods at war have dealt with each other. Some definitely do refer to Jews and Christians, and aren't totally at odds with the fierce spirit of competition Jews and Christians went through in the early days of the Church and afterwards. Some may refer to unbelievers within Islam. The context isn't made clear by this translation or others.
In general, there are analogues for the passages cited in Exodus and Numbers, where the invasion of Canaan is ordered and executed and in Deuteronomy. Some of the sites I linked to in the previous posts will give more precise citations. Anyone interested could take the time to look through them. A personal favorite is Moses's words in Numbers 31:17-18: "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Christianity is a more individualistic faith, but even within it there are commands to cut oneself off from unbelieving relatives.
As to whether the Bible commands that you can "lie, cheat, steal rape and murder the infidels," you might try Deuteronomy 7:1-5, Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 13:6-10, Exodus 32:27-29, Numbers 33:55-56, Deuteronomy 7:1-2 or Numbers 25:1-9 for a start. But where does it say in the Koran that you can do these things? I can't say that it doesn't. It does advocate severity with unbelievers -- as does the Bible -- but you'd have to really do some research before you could positively assert that the Koran does allow believers to "lie, cheat, steal rape and murder the infidels." My point isn't that the Koran doesn't advocate harsh treatment of unbelievers in some passages, or that Muslims don't treat unbelievers harshly today. It's that one could find similar passages in other scriptures.
Whether or not such behavior is "hard-coded" into the Koran in a way that it isn't in the Bible is worthy of discussion, but some of the claims made here about the Koran are also true of other holy books. If Christianity or Judaism have outgrown them that's all to the good. If Islam hasn't there's a problem, but selectively quoting some passages from the Koran to make broad claims about Islam doesn't really get at the problem.
Thank you for printing the truth. Have tried over and over to get people to see this, but they do NOT want to understand. I am heartbroken. If they do NOT publicly denounce this aspect of their religion, the government must bulldoze their mosques and deport them. If not, we're going to see terrorism over and over again.
I didn't say it was a Christian/Jew war. 'We' as in humanity. Christianity wasn't legal until Constantine. Funny that he legalized it, yet didn't convert until on his deathbed. 'Hedging his bets'!
Tell that to the Germans bombed at Dresden. Tell that to the Japanese firebombed in Tokyo. Tell that to the Japanese nuked in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm sure we will try to spare as many innocent lives as possible, but if these cowards are hiding behind them, as they do in the West Bank and Gaza, where they send children out to throw stones at tanks and APC's, then innocents will die and no amount of your misguided, self-deluded liberal panty-waisted handwringing and pants-wetting is going to change that.
And yes, you are still a liar and a loser.
"I hope our fellow Americans understand that."
I have no doubt that - given the posts from some on this thread - they will be the first to bow obediently at the feet of their Islamic masters.
These terrorist boot-loickers and appeasers sicken me.
Innocents will die. Those nations that harbor these monsters are as culpable as the monsters themselves....innocents will die.
I am well aware of that fact. The difference between you and I is that I don't take great delight in it (and the only liar in this exchange is the one lying to himself). Have a great life, hypocrite...while you still can...before all that hatred you're nurturing comes back to bite you in the butt.
The standing command for jihad in the koran is really all that counts here.
I will boldly champion Christianity. YOU (and everyone else) are called by the only God that really exists, to trust in Jesus Christ for your eternal life.
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