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The Islamic agenda
Koran, Bible | Sept 12, 2001 | Anamensis

Posted on 09/12/2001 8:46:13 AM PDT by Anamensis

Folks, pardon this vanity post, but I was reading the Koran last night, trying to figure out if these maniacs really think they are doing what they are "supposed" to do. I have to come to the conclusion that they are. The Koran (that's the muslim bible, as you probably know) says clearly that if they are at war with an enemy, they should kill-kill-kill. Of course, then it's a matter of whether or not they consider themselves to be "at war." Obviously, some do.

I've also read a lot about their attitude toward Jews and Christians, and their attitude is this: Jews were given a covenant with "God" and they broke it. Christians were given Jesus as a prophet (NOT the son of God, just another prophet to tell them to return to the old ways of the original covenant given them by Moses) and they aren't doing it. Mohammed is their next (probably last) chance. So the idea is, if Jews and Christians believe in Islam, then they are okay. But if they stay Jewish or Christian, it says clearly, they are "unbelievers" and "do not make friends with them" and on judgement day they will be judged.

It says clearly that Jesus was a prophet, but never crucified, never dead, never resurrected, but just taken straight up to heaven. There is also a very long passage predicting a conversation between God and Jesus, where God says, "you never told people that you were my Son, and to worship YOU instead of ME, did you?" and Jesus will say, "No, I would never do such a thing." (Or words to that effect.)

So then I looked through the bible (yes, I do have one, for reference) and actually, I didn't see where Jesus ever says clearly, "I am The Son of God, Born of a Virgin, etc." Mostly he calls himself the "son of man." Only in one parable (it crops up twice but it's the same one, once in Matthew, once in Luke... may be in Mark/John, I didn't look) does he say that "only the Father will recognize the Son and only the Son will recognize the Father" and then the only ones to see the father will be those shown him by the son. This is probably the basis for the Jesus-as-son aspect of Christianity. Through most of it, he says "my Father, your Father, our Father" indiscriminately.

There is one other place where Simon Peter says "who are you?" and he says, "who do they say I am?" and SP says "Christ of God, his son" and Jesus says something like "blessed are you, then." But it's not really clear. And there is VERY little to base the virgin birth business on.

So apparently the muslims see themselves as really the third bunch to be given the chance to please god through a covenant. The notion, I guess, is: Jews went astray, Christians missed the point, we have it right and we're going to kill you because you don't agree.

I post this for those who want to defend Islam and say that "it's not about killing," because, I'm sorry, yes it is. There is a plethora of incentive to kill the enemy in the Koran. And those who say that Islam is not unfriendly to "believers" and "People of the Book," be advised that from what I can see, those two phrases to NOT apply to those who call themselves Jews or Christians.


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Just trying to make sense of the mentality behind this business.
1 posted on 09/12/2001 8:46:13 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: Anamensis
Yes. This terrorism does seem to be a "war" based on religious beliefs.

Which religion do many of the world's theocratic or semi-theocratic governments profess?

Islam.

2 posted on 09/12/2001 8:59:12 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: Anamensis
I post this for those who want to defend Islam and say that "it's not about killing," because, I'm sorry, yes it is.

Christianity killed plenty of people in God's name too. Any outsider would have said Christianity is about killing - as I'm sure the Native Americans of 500 years ago did based on what they saw being done to them.

That being said, most Moslems are not Arabs. They have nothing to do with the Palistinian conflict. Vast populations of Moslems live in Asia, Southeast Asia and Africa. And our NATO allies, the Turks are also Moslem.

It is the extremists are the ones who support the killing, not the other 99.999%

3 posted on 09/12/2001 9:06:53 AM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: Anamensis
ALL the good guys, and ALL the bad guys (Belfast, Kabul, Palestine, Havana, Bombay) claim to have their God on their side.
And the other guys are the heathens.
They can't all be right.
4 posted on 09/12/2001 9:07:55 AM PDT by KirklandJunction
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To: Anamensis
Very interesting. Would that all vanities were as clear, concise and relevant. There are a lot of Bible (and presumably some Koran) scholars on FR. It would be interesting to hear from some of them.
5 posted on 09/12/2001 9:09:15 AM PDT by Hugin
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
If you read the biography of Malcom X, he changes from a militant viewpoint of Islam after his trip to Mecca where he witnessed Muslims of every race and color. At that point he rejected violence and embraced civility.
6 posted on 09/12/2001 9:10:43 AM PDT by Mean Daddy
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
Don't think I'm defending any religion, I'm an atheist. Right now, it is Islam that is presenting a danger. Christianity quit killing so much once it was successfully established as a power, as did Judaism, as might Islam if it were successful... My point is, on its way to the top, it authorizes the sort of act we saw yesterday, and those who might say otherwise are mistaken.
7 posted on 09/12/2001 9:14:28 AM PDT by Anamensis
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: A Ruckus of Dogs
It is the extremists are the ones who support the killing, not the other 99.999%

Sorry, I've seen too many pictures of Muslim crowds dancing in the streets to celebrate terrorist attacks to buy that number. It may not be a majority of all Mislimes who back them, but it may very well be a majority in some Muslim countries, and a sizable minority in others. Also if you look around the world where there are significant numbers of Muslims in contact with other religous groups there is terrorism where they are the minority, and oppression of others where they are the majority in many, many of those places.

9 posted on 09/12/2001 9:16:14 AM PDT by Hugin
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
Americans need to drop our notions of civilization and virtue and innocence when dealing with the lesser peoples inhabiting the terrorist world. That world, like ours, includes businessmen, soldiers, housewives, and children - but they are not like us.

They haven't been trained in political correctness and tolerance, they never pray for peace, they don't love their enemy. They are the embodiment of HATRED. They speak the language of hate 24/7, they pray for the death of their enemies and they cheer violence, offering their children as martyrs.

We cannot apply our Constitutional rights to them. They don't want them. They want us to die. They want to celebrate carnage. Rights? They don't speak the language of rights unless they are making demands and telling lies.

Drop the plea for "tolerance" and realize that there is no moral equivalence between America and the people of Islamic terror.

How can we call martyrdom "cowardly acts"? Do we not understand what the the term "holy war" means? Perhaps that is why we have been the victims and not the victors so far in this conflict.

Our enemy has been convinced they are engaged in a jihad - a holy war for Islam. That means everyone plays a part in the war. They all fight together in their own way - they hide and support the leaders, they celebrate the dead heroes, they offer themselves and their children as shields, they pray constantly for bloodshed in the name of Allah.

They are not cowards - they are insanely brave fanatics of an evil, false, bloodthirsty religion. There is no moral equivalency between Christianity and Islam. There can be no mutual tolerance.

Let us see the enemy clearly and recognize its twisted concept of God, duty, life and honor.

Calling them cowards is just dumb.

When we fight against terrorism as we must now, we will not fight for peace. We will fight for the annihilation of our enemy. There is a difference.

May God grant us understanding, wisdom, strength, courage and victory over our enemies in truth, justice and righteousness.
Valerie

10 posted on 09/12/2001 9:20:33 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
One more point--we have all seen the throngs of Arab Muslims celebrating this and other attacks. Where is the vast Moderate Muslim Majority protesting what is being done in the name of their religion and expressing solidarity with the Christian and Jewish victims? The silence is deafening.
11 posted on 09/12/2001 9:22:03 AM PDT by Hugin
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To: ValerieUSA
They haven't been trained in political correctness and tolerance, they never pray for peace, they don't love their enemy.... they pray for the death of their enemies and they cheer violence, offering their children as martyrs... We cannot apply our Constitutional rights to them. They don't want them. They want us to die... Our enemy has been convinced they are engaged in a jihad - a holy war for Islam. That means everyone plays a part in the war. They all fight together in their own way - they hide and support the leaders, they celebrate the dead heroes, they offer themselves and their children as shields, they pray constantly for bloodshed in the name of Allah.

Excellent summary. You said it all. That is what we are dealing with.

12 posted on 09/12/2001 9:25:26 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: ValerieUSA
They haven't been trained in political correctness and tolerance, they never pray for peace, they don't love their enemy.... they pray for the death of their enemies and they cheer violence, offering their children as martyrs... We cannot apply our Constitutional rights to them. They don't want them. They want us to die... Our enemy has been convinced they are engaged in a jihad - a holy war for Islam. That means everyone plays a part in the war. They all fight together in their own way - they hide and support the leaders, they celebrate the dead heroes, they offer themselves and their children as shields, they pray constantly for bloodshed in the name of Allah.

Excellent summary. You said it all. That is what we are dealing with.

13 posted on 09/12/2001 9:25:34 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
Christianity killed plenty of people in God's name too. Any outsider would have said Christianity is about killing - as I'm sure the Native Americans of 500 years ago did based on what they saw being done to them.

Blah, blah, blah. Always amuses me that people have to go back 500 years to link Islam and Christianity. The world grew up, the Real Church did as well. Allah's still stuck in infantile stage. It is not a religion designed to move forward.

14 posted on 09/12/2001 9:25:35 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Anamensis
New Page 2

 

http://www.americanfriends.org/nuclear/peaceIslam_N313.html

Islam says the world is divided into two parts.
1.The first is Dar el-Islam or the World of Islam
2. All the rest is Dar el-Harb or the world of the sword or the world of war -- that is those non-Muslim nations that have yet to be conquered.

Is peace possible between Israel and the Arab world?
The answer is YES -- But only after mind-boggling changes in the Arab world. True peace can only be made after the Arab world undergoes democratization. Simply put, democracies rarely go to war with one another. All our major wars of the last two hundred years have been between dictators or between democracies defending themselves from dictators. When a ruler is elected by the people, he has a natural restraint preventing him from sending their sons and daughters into combat in an aggressive war. No such restraint exists anywhere in the Arab world.

ISLAM AND JIHAD
The second major change required of the Arab/Moslem world is to create secular states not subservient to the rule of Islam. The problem for Israel with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is the very hostile attitude that Islam has toward Jews and any non-Islamic person. Islam is all encompassing and guides behavior, law, religion and attitudes and relations with non-Moslems.Islam perceives the world as two separate parts:

1.The first is Dar el-Islam or the World of Islam
2. All the rest is Dar el-Harb or the world of the sword or the world of war -- that is those non-Muslim nations that have yet to be conquered.

The concept of JIHAD or Holy War has been understood by most of us but there is another concept in the Koran with which few of us are familiar. But it is essential to understand this concept when relating to Moslems. That is the law of HUDAIBIYA which dates back to Muhammad and states clearly that "Muslims are permitted to lie and break agreements with non- Muslims." This applies to business, personal life and politics. Would a peace treaty be worth much if the other party is Moslem?

 


15 posted on 09/12/2001 9:31:04 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: Anamensis
Some Muslims have sublimated Jihad into an internal spiritual struggle, and take the passages of the Koran about killing in the same way Eastern Christians take the passages of Psalms about killing: metaphorical injunctions to destroy the enemy within (the passions, unbelief,...).

The enemy are those Muslims who do not, who take the Koran at face value.

16 posted on 09/12/2001 9:39:07 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: Anamensis
Incidentally, the Muslims concur with Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin.
17 posted on 09/12/2001 9:41:45 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: Anamensis
Incidentally, the Muslims concur with Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin.
18 posted on 09/12/2001 9:42:18 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: Anamensis
Incidentally, the Muslims concur with Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin.
19 posted on 09/12/2001 9:42:43 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: Anamensis
I didn't see where Jesus ever says clearly, "I am The Son of God . . .

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 1:1, 14

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever so believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 5:22-23

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:40

I could go on, but . . .

20 posted on 09/12/2001 9:48:08 AM PDT by SlaveNoMore
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