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Posted on 12/25/2025 4:26:17 PM PST by Kazan
In the United States, several transcripts of conversations between Russia's leader Vladimir Putin and former US president George Bush have been published, in which Putin argued that Ukraine is an artificial state with a fragmented society and warned of a long-term confrontation with the West if Ukraine were admitted to NATO.
Source: European Pravda with reference to the non-governmental research institution the National Security Archive
Details: In a conversation dated 16 June 2001, Putin, speaking in a passage about the need for honesty in relations and saying that he senses the mood of Russian society well, spoke about his disappointment with the changes that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Quote from the transcript: "What really happened? Soviet good will changed the world, voluntarily. And Russians gave up thousands of square kilometers of territory, voluntarily. Unheard of. Ukraine, part of Russia for centuries, given away. Kazakhstan, given away. The Caucasus, too. Hard to imagine, and done by party bosses."
More details: The conversation of 6 April 2008 includes a passage in which Putin tells Bush of his view of Ukraine as an artificial state and says that its accession to NATO is absolutely unacceptable to Moscow.
"It won't be new to you, and I don't expect a response; I just want to say it out loud. I'd like to emphasise accession to NATO of a country like Ukraine will create for the long-term a field of conflict for you and us, long-term confrontation," Putin said.
In response to Bush's follow-up question, he describes Ukraine as an "artificial country" with a highly fragmented society.
"Seventeen million Russians live in Ukraine – a third of the population. Ukraine is a very complex state. This is not a nation built in a natural manner. It's an artificial country created back in Soviet times. Following World War II Ukraine obtained territory from Poland, Romania and Hungary – that's pretty much all of western Ukraine. In the 1920s and 1930s Ukraine obtained territory from Russia – that's the eastern part of the country. In 1956, the Crimean peninsula was transferred to Ukraine. [...] It's populated by people with very different mindsets. If you go to western Ukraine you'll see villages where the only spoken language is Hungarian and people wear those bonnets. In the east, people are wearing suits, ties and big hats. NATO is perceived by a large part of the Ukrainian population as a hostile organisation," the transcript says.
From there, Putin goes on to explain that Ukraine's potential accession to NATO would create problems for Russia.
"This creates the threat of military bases and new military systems being deployed in the proximity of Russia. It created uncertainties and threats for us. And relying on the anti-NATO forces in Ukraine, Russia would be working on stripping NATO of the possibility of enlarging. Russia would be creating problems there all the time. What for? What is the meaning of Ukrainian membership in NATO? What benefit is there for NATO and the US? There can be only one reason for it and that would be to cement Ukraine's status as in the Western world and that would be the logic. I don't think it's the right logic. [...] And given the divergent views of areas of the population on NATO membership, the country could just split apart. I always said there's a certain pro-Western part, and a certain pro-Russia part," Putin argues, adding that Ukraine's political life reflects these contradictions and that the pro-Western forces who came to power after the Orange Revolution immediately fell out with one another.
"The issue there is not accession to NATO, but to ensure the self-sufficiency of Ukraine. Also, their economy should be strengthened," he said.
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Whoever released the document dropped a truth bomb on the lie that the root cause of the war in Ukraine.
You love Putin.
Is it wrong to declassify documents?
“Seventeen million Russians live in Ukraine – a third of the population.”
Russia has not natural borders. Does that make it an artificial country?
Good to see HISTORY being discussed here, no matter how much it infuriates the people trying to Astroturf us into thinking that Putin is a madman intent on marching all the way to London.
Putin is incorrect. A distinct Ukrainian identity goes back centuries. As a state, Ukraine declared independence in 1917 with roughly the same borders it has now and was recognized by Russia in 1918. Because of the strength of Ukrainian nationalism, when Russia conquered it in 1922 Lenin had to recognize it as a constituent state of the new Soviet Union rather than reincorporating it directly back into Russia. Lenin recognized Ukraine; he did not create it.
Bush to press for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO
By Reuters
April 1, 2008
Maybe he should have focused on finding Osama Bin Laden.
“pAkIStAn gOEs BacK cEnTUrIEs. iT WaSn’t CReaTeD bY ThE bRItIsH !”
Which did NOT include the parts of Russia, Romania, Poland and Hungary that were artificially grafted into the country by communists.
You're lying if you claim the Maiden revolution didn't setoff a civil war and denying those in the annexed area didn't want to remain part of Ukraine after it occurred.
But, you're Ukrainian nationalist and Ukrainian nationalists lie.
Russian president Vladimir Putin wants you to believe that NATO is responsible for his February 24 invasion of Ukraine—that rounds of NATO enlargement made Russia insecure, forcing Putin to lash out. This argument has two key flaws. First, NATO has been a variable and not a constant source of tension between Russia and the West. Moscow has in the past acknowledged Ukraine’s right to join NATO; the Kremlin’s complaints about the alliance spike in a clear pattern after democratic breakthroughs in the post-Soviet space. This highlights a second flaw: Since Putin fears democracy and the threat that it poses to his regime, and not expanded NATO membership, taking the latter off the table will not quell his insecurity. His declared goal of the invasion, the “denazification” of Ukraine, is a code for his real aim: antidemocratic regime change.
https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears-most/
What Putin failed to mention is that all the Russians who are currently in the Ukraine, needed to move there because Russia starved the original Ukrainians to death. Leaving nobody to harvest the food that fed Russia’s communist elites. His hero Stalin murdered tens of millions in Russia and millions in the Ukraine... The net result... Less mouths to feed.
“You’re lying if you claim the Maiden revolution didn’t setoff a civil war”
It resulted in a pro-Russian leader being removed from office and Russian infiltraters starting a bloody war.
“and denying those in the annexed area didn’t want to remain part of Ukraine after it occurred.”
They didn’t until the Russian infiltraters showed them the way ...
Learn some history.
Not only is Ukraine an artificial country, what is called Ukrain was only a region historically. For the most part, Ukraine was Russian with Kiev being once the capital of Russia. Much of the western regions of modern Ukraine were Polish and Hungarian. Hardly blame for Putin wanting to make it Russian again. Russia (Putin) is right to fear NATO and the EU as they are very expansionist.
I commented before reading the entire thread. Thank you Rev Wright, for your map.
So, Ukraine existed before the USA.
The Russian Empire included a number of non-Russian territories, Ukraine included. Contrary to the ideology of Russian nationalists, Ukrainians are not Russians and this war shows that they are willing to fight and die for their independence.
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