Putin has just discovered the scale of his latest miscalculation

The Telegraph ^

[USA-FRANCE]

President Donald Trump has finally lost patience with Vladimir Putin. Having promised a “major” announcement on Russia, Trump has now confirmed that the US will dramatically increase weapons supplies to Europe for use in Ukraine and threatened 100 per cent secondary tariffs on Russia’s trade partners. Trump would only provide Russia with an off-ramp if Putin agreed to a ceasefire in Ukraine within 50 days.

[SmokingJoe]

“High speed trains. The most does not equal the best or the first. Japan was first with high-speed trains. But no matter who or where, high-speed rail if not really ‘high-tech’. “

As at today, China has the fastest, most advanced high speed trains on the planet.

“China does have the most people in the world, so logically, the largest number of consumers. “

Actually India currently has the biggest population on earth.
But that's not the reason China is dominating in so many hi tech fields. Its sheer hard work.

“But, ALL OF THAT TECHNOLOGY you mentioned, came from the U.S. and Japan and S.Korea and Europe”

China got where they were by sheer hard work plus producing more engineers than any country on the planet.
Let that sink in.

“How ‘advanced’ was China over 40 years ago, and before the U.S. and others decided to make them the manufacturers of our electronics and other products”

40 years ago is not today.
People born 40 years ago have grown up gone to universities and become great engineers in China, who are now kicking your butts.

[SmokingJoe]

“The Europeans and Americans share a lot of their technology, which then makes Europe a prime target for Chinese theft of technology. “

Why would the Chinese take technology from someone who is stealing/borrowing technology from someone else?
And how come china is ahead of Europe in space with China having rovers on Mars and the moon and Europe having none?

“Insofar as what China has is stolen American and Japanese and S.Korean and European technology, “

Again, China got where they are through very hard work.
Europe is too busy importing sheep herders from Somalia and other hell hole countries to do much of really advanced technology or space technology. So China is kicking your sorry butts.

[adorno]

Why would the Chinese take technology from someone who is stealing/borrowing technology from someone else?

You have a problem understanding the written word.

It's not stealing or borrowing. It's shared technology, like in the F-35 which was a joint effort by the U.S. and Europeans.

In any case, even the technology and design and materials in the F-15 has been stolen and copied by the Chinese and Russian.

The U.S. is not sharing or selling the F-22 Raptor to any country.. It's strictly for U.S. use. That's because the tech in it is super-secret and selling it to any other country makes it available to our enemies to steal and copy the tech. Lessons learned.

And how come china is ahead of Europe in space with China having rovers on Mars and the moon and Europe having none?

The Europeans are not as desperate as Russia and Chin, who are in the business of pace, simply to keep pace with the U.S. and for propaganda purposes. What the U.S does in space is shred with the Europeans, so no big need for them to match the U.S. or China.

“Insofar as what China has is stolen American and Japanese and S.Korean and European technology, “

Again, China got where they are through very hard work.

For sure. Spying and stealing and copying other countries' technology is HARD WORK, and even dangerous. You gotta be good at it to not be caught. But they have been caught doing it and Trump aims to put a stop to it. The Chinese will have to work harder to steal and copy, going forward.

Europe is too busy importing sheep herders from Somalia and other hell hole countries to do much of really advanced technology or space technology.

By your simpleton logic, I guess the U.S. was too busy too importing the dregs from the world, and had no time to conduct research and development; but we know that's not the case. Europeans just don't have the same urgency as China and Russia to stay competitive against the U.S. If a chicken doesn't see a need to dig into the dirt for its food, it's not going to do it.

So China is kicking your sorry butts.

It's very easy to look advanced,when all China has to do is steal and copy the technology. Europe gets the technology and the benefits from American and Japanese and S.Korean and even European technology, without having to steal and copy it. A bank robber can be well-off, if he worked hard enough and got away with it, at robbing banks.

[SmokingJoe]

“It's not stealing or borrowing. It's shared technology, like in the F-35 which was a joint effort by the U.S. and Europeans”

Europe has been stealing technology from America for a long time, one way or another.
F35?
It doesn't even work as good as it should and its a small part of American technology.
F22 was made long before F35 and it sill totally outperforms F35.
And Europe had nothing to do with creating/making F22.
America still refuses to sell F22s to Europe for fear of the Europeans stealing the technology.

[SmokingJoe]

“By your simpleton logic, I guess the U.S. was too busy too importing the dregs from the world, and had no time to conduct research and development; but we know that's not the case.”

Biden imported plenty of third world garbage, which Trump is hard at work booting out of the country.
Meanwhile, America managed to import Elon Musk who managed to change the space industry and currently has the only space craft outside Russia that is able to take astronauts to and from the Space Station.

[SmokingJoe]

“It's very easy to look advanced,when all China has to do is steal and copy the technology.”

China developed most of their advanced technology by themselves.
The Chinese are very hard working people and they produce more engineers by far than anyone else

[adorno]

As at today, China has the fastest, most advanced high speed trains on the planet.

Not really 'high tech'.

And with the largest population on Earth, they have the need for the biggest rail transportation system in the world Most of the world is happy to get to distance places using something a bit more modern, like planes. ;)

Actually India currently has the biggest population on earth. <

India: 1.4286 billion; China: 1.4257 billion.

Those are estimates and not real on-the-ground counts; so basically, just about equal. Not really anything to boas about.

But basically, my argument is not undone since the population counts are basically the same.

But that's not the reason China is dominating in so many hi tech fields. Its sheer hard work.

I met a few of their 'hard workers' in a few of the companies I worked for. And if you multiply that by many thousands, China does have a lot of 'hard workers'. But that hard work is mostly in spying and stealing and copying American and other countries' technology. And if you add the many thousands of students China has at American universities, that 'work force' is indeed working very hard to make China technologically competent.

“But, ALL OF THAT TECHNOLOGY you mentioned, came from the U.S. and Japan and S.Korea and Europe”

Still true.

China got where they were by sheer hard work

I agree with you.

It takes 'hard work' to spy and steal and copy technology from other countries.

plus producing more engineers than any country on the planet.

When they were so behind in technology for so many years,and were suddenly faced with having to catch up, they did need a huge number of engineers to steal and copy and reverse engineer the technology which must have seemed overwhelming to a backward society. Most of those engineers were trained by companies which transferred their production facilities to China, and a great number of them were also trained by American universities.

Imagine that.. Americans giving away our technology to our enemies, and training them at it.

Let that sink in.

“How ‘advanced’ was China over 40 years ago, and before the U.S. and others decided to make them the manufacturers of our electronics and other products”

Still a very good question for which you don't have an answer.

40 years ago is not today.

See what I mean? You can't answer a simple question, because, everything I've said is true. China is a copycat.

People born 40 years ago have grown up gone to universities and become great engineers in China, who are now kicking your butts.

No matter how young the Chinese engineers are, they are still mostly stealing and copying our technology. It does take training in engineering to understand what you are copying.

But, YOU are right. The Chinese are good a kicking butts, when what they do is spy and steal and copy. We can do the same, but we prefer to develop our won.

But I don't blame the Chinese for being such copycats. If aliens from another world came to our planet and brought advanced technology with them, we'd be tempted to copy them too. It's easier than starting from scratch, which is how the Chinese feel too. We copy the technology which natural things possess. and which God provided, such as the tech which dolphins use to easily flow through water; we copied and designed planes with that copied 'tech'. ;)

[SmokingJoe]

“Not really ‘high tech’. “

It IS very hi tech and the Chinese dominate in it.

“And with the largest population on Earth, they have the need for the biggest rail transportation system in the world Most of the world is happy to get to distance places using something a bit more modern, like planes. ;)”

Again China does NOT have the highest population anymore.
India does.
And if highest populations mean high speed trains, where are the Indian high speed trains at?

[TexasGator]

“F22 was made long before F35 and it sill totally outperforms F35.”

Not totally.

Different missions. I some areas the F35 outperforms.

[adorno]

China developed most of their advanced technology by themselves.

Baloney! Hogwash! (I was going to say 'bullshit', but I don't curse, so I didn't do it).

The Chinese are very hard working people and they produce more engineers by far than anyone else

When they had so much to catch up on, and the amount of technology was so overwhelming, they had to produce a huge number of engineers in an attempt to understand and copy the technology and produce copycat products.

If an apple farmer produces the most delicious apples in the world, others will want to copy the technique to grow their own. The copycat farmers might claim they were the first or the best, but they'd be lying. The Chinese tech 'superiority' is a bald-faced lie.

[TexasGator]

“
Again, China got where they are through very hard work.”

Espionage is hard work!

---

China and Russia are always eager to steal technology from the U.S. to advance their own military and private industries. And they have repeatedly succeeded in doing so, perhaps most notably when China used cyber espionage and an insider source to get a hold of the F-35, F-22, and C-130 blueprints in 2016.

https://www.sandboxx.us/news/why-america-never-sold-the-f-22-raptor-to-foreign-countries/

[adorno]

Meanwhile, America managed to import Elon Musk who managed to change the space industry and currently has the only space craft outside Russia that is able to take astronauts to and from the Space Station.

That argument doesn't fit your simpleton claim that Europeans were too busy importing 'garbage' and didn't have time to develop and improve.

I'm pretty sure there have been immigrants to Europe who have made great contributions to them too, perhaps not at the scale of a Musk, but they have.

[SmokingJoe]

“Baloney! Hogwash! (I was going to say ‘bullshit’, but I don't curse, so I didn't do it).”

You mean what I said are facts, yes?

“When they had so much to catch up on, and the amount of technology was so overwhelming, they had to produce a huge number of engineers in an attempt to understand and copy the technology and produce copycat products. “

Again the Chinese worked extremely hard, produced more engineers than anyone else, innovated and managed to put a rover on the moon and on Mars, even as the jealous Europeans gazed at their navels and stamped their feet in anger and frustration.
Chuckle.

[SmokingJoe]

“That argument doesn't fit your simpleton claim that Europeans were too busy importing ‘garbage’ and didn't have time to develop and improve.”

It fits my argument perfectly.
Importing goat herders and terrorists from Somalia etc is not equal to importing an Elon Musk.

[adorno]

Europe has been stealing technology from America for a long time, one way or another.

We have stolen form the Europeans and from others, and Europe has done the same with us. It happens, but not at the scale that the Chines do it. In order to catch up with the U.S. and others, the Chinese had to develop a large theft ring of spies and technology thieves. But the Chinese have not had to woek so hard at stealing our technology, since we basically gave them what they have, and some traitors have sold them the technology. <

F35?

Yep! That one.

It doesn't even work as good as it should and its a small part of American technology.

The F-35 is a wonder weapon, and it's the most lethal weapon that undid the Iranian defenses, which also led the way to destroying the Iranian uranium enrichment plants. Not too shabby. The IDF thanks God everyday for the F-35.

The Chinese nor the Russians, can duplicate the tech that produced the F-35, though they've tried.

Yeah, I know. You want to denigrate and poo-pooh the greatness that produced the F-35, but it's something that neither the Russians or Chinese want to face in battle.

F22 was made long before F35 and it sill totally outperforms F35.

True, but that's not the point.

The F-35 was produced with shared technology, and sales of the fighter was approved by congress and it's used in many air forces of our friends and allies.

The F-22 is not as popular because the U.S. will not share the tech that produced the F-22. The F-22 is stealthier and contains technology that the U.s. doesn't want the enemy to have access to. It's also not a fighter that the U.S. will not be using in tn the future because it's a lot more expensive to produce and maintain. But a lot of the tech witinthe F-22 will be used to produce the net generation of fighters lke the F-47. Some have even called the F-22 a sixth generation fighter, and a lot of that will be incorporated in the F-47.

No country has produced a fighter jet that comes even close to the F-22; but it's too expensive to deploy.

And Europe had nothing to do with creating/making F22.

I did say they corroborated on the making of the F-35, not the F-22, which was strictly American all the way.

America still refuses to sell F22s to Europe for fear of the Europeans stealing the technology.

True, but, it's not mostly because of Europeans stealing the tech. If the F-22s were to be sold to others, it would be more easily accessible to the Chines and Russian, and there are more spies in Europe and the middle-east than in the U.S. Even in the U.S., thee are traitors who if they get their hands on the super secret F-22 blueprints, they would sell it to the enemy. China got access to American missile technology thru the Clintons. The Clintons should have been prosecuted and imprisoned decades ago for their treason. We still have Clinton-like people in governments, in Europe and in the U.S. and elsewhere. The Chinese went to outer space and the moon and Mars, with OUR technology.

[SmokingJoe]

“The F-35 is a wonder weapon, and it’s the most lethal weapon that undid the Iranian defenses, which also led the way to destroying the Iranian uranium enrichment plants. “

You mean the B2 bomber yes?

“The F-22 is not as popular because the U.S. will not share the tech that produced the F-22. The F-22 is stealthier and contains “

Very popular, just not available to anybody outside the US.

[adorno]

It fits my argument perfectly.

If arguing for argument's sake is what you're after, then you are right, but it's still a simple ton and bogus argument.

Importing goat herders and terrorists from Somalia etc is not equal to importing an Elon Musk.

they get the goat-herder and we get the fentanyl smugglers and carpenters and lawn maintenance crews and fruit pickers and house cleaners. ;)

So, what did Elon Musk do that we weren't doing before? He didn't reinvent the wheel, and he didn't invent anything new. Better mouse traps or more mouse traps or cheaper mouse traps or electric mouse traps?

Neither argument goes to the heart of why China can only get ahead by spying and stealing and copying our tech. If the Europeans had the same goals as the Chinese, they'd be a lot better at spying and stealing and copying western technology. the Europeans bet all the benefits of western technology without have to steal it, They do copy the technology, but it's because it's made available to them while the Chinese are invested in stealing it.

[SmokingJoe]

“So, what did Elon Musk do that we weren't doing before? He didn't reinvent the wheel, and he didn't invent anything new. Better mouse traps or more mouse traps or cheaper mouse traps or electric mouse traps? “

He landed and reused launch rockets for starters.
Over and over again.
Never been done before least of all by Europe.
Musk still has the only working rockets/space craft that sends astronauts to Space Station and back in the west outside Russia.

[adorno]

aloney! Hogwash! (I was going to say ‘bullshit’, but I don't curse, so I didn't do it).”

You mean what I said are facts, yes?

Only if yur hogwash or baloney or bullshit are facts. ;)

“When they had so much to catch up on, and the amount of technology was so overwhelming, they had to produce a huge number of engineers in an attempt to understand and copy the technology and produce copycat products. “

Woah! That's so smart. Whoever said it is a genius with that analysis. ;)

Again the Chinese worked extremely hard, produced more engineers than anyone else,

When they had to do so much catching up, they had to come up with the people to do the stealing and copying.

innovated

Stealing and copying is not innovation.

and managed to put a rover on the moon and on Mars,

With stolen and copied and bought technology from the U.S.

even as the jealous Europeans gazed at their navels and stamped their feet in anger and frustration.

Good imagination, but, the Europeans didn't have the same urgency as the Chinese to copy what America was doing, and then pretend that they were such great innovators.

CHUCKLE!

Better yet,

LOL

[SmokingJoe]

“Neither argument goes to the heart of why China can only get ahead by spying and stealing and copying our tech. “

Again China has more engineers than anyone else, and China works harder than anyone else.
That's why China has working rovers on both the moon and on Mars and Europe doesn't.
Europe is reduced to constantly whining about the Chinese “stealing” technology, same arguments Europe made when the Japaneses started taking over technology and electronics back in the day.

"If the Europeans had the same goals as the Chinese, they'd be a lot better at spying and stealing and copying western technology. the Europeans bet all the benefits of western technology without have to steal it,"

Europe has the same goals, just don't work as hard at innovating as the Chinese.