Posted on 03/12/2025 11:50:44 AM PDT by buwaya
Sweden donated 10 of its best Strv 122 tanks to Ukraine. In two years of hard fighting, Russian forces have scored no fewer than 14 hits on the 63-ton, four-person tanks—possibly meaning all 10 of the tanks have been damaged, some more than once. Incredibly, most of the tanks—up-armored Swedish variants of the German-made Leopard 2A5—are still operational, according to one detailed accounting. The tanks’ durability is testimony to German and Swedish engineering and the courage and ingenuity of Ukrainian engineers who must tow damaged tanks off the battlefield for repairs. The add-on armor works. One up-armored Leopard 1A5 recently shrugged off eight Russian drones before three more finally immobilized it.
The toughness of Ukraine’s German-designed tanks helps explain why these vehicles no longer top the list of Ukraine’s equipment needs. Of the 259 Strv 122s, Leopard 2A6s, Leopard 2A4s and Leopard 1A5s the allies have pledged since 2023, most have been delivered—and just 30 or so have been destroyed. No, what Ukraine needs is drones, defenses against drones, long-range air defenses, artillery shells and—more than anything else—a more robust and fair mobilization system to replenish its depleted infantry battalions with fresh troops.
The tanks Ukraine already has—not just hundreds of Western models, but also a thousand or more Soviet-style T-64s, T-72s and T-80s—should suffice.
(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...
Getting hit by a drone and not a Javelin, are two very different encounters.
Sort of true. But the whole point of the “up armor” is to defend against drones.
Keep adding up=armor.
Soon it is many inches thick (and very heavy).\
Can;t be penetrated, and can’t move.
This makes me want a tank.
“No, what Ukraine needs is drones”
Maybe we’d be more willing to finance more drones if the Ukrainians wouldn’t waste them by the hundreds on apartment buildings, car parks and meat warehouses.
Where would the Uke position be today had the West collectively done a Manhattan project style urgent crash manufacturing of artillery shells and tubes for them and they had not had to be behind in firing artillery shells by 3 to 1 or 5 to 1 rates?
Those particular drones were designed for that sort of attack. Was it a waste of resources? We don’t have independent BDA. Nor do we have info on collateral effects. And there is the fact that in war R&D happens by throwing stuff at the enemy and seeing what happens.
“Where would the Uke position be today had the West collectively done a Manhattan project style urgent crash manufacturing of artillery shells and tubes for them”
A great question.
There has indeed subsequently been a global distributed “Manhattan project” for 155mm, official unofficial or sheerly opportunistic. Theres a lot of money in selling 155mm to Ukraine. Mid 2024 the artillery shell situation was closer to 1:1. The difference now is it seems NK is emptying out its decades old stockpiles.
And who would have paid for the Manhattan style ramp up project (disclaimer: I try to avoid Uke Russia threads, but I think we paid way more for the Uke defense than we should have. Saying the Ukes are losing because we didn’t pay/do enough gets my goat a little bit).
Agreed. I've always been of the mindset to help Ukraine some, but only to a point. And that point has been exceeded. Besides, there's the PR angle Russia can use. The more we help Ukraine and Ukraine still lose, the more Russia's PR can say they "beat" both Ukraine and the U.S.
While quantity has a quality all its own, if the US or others have supplied the Ukes with ‘our’ counter-battery radar, then the Ukes CAN silence or reduce that 5:1 advantage.
Ask any US cannon cocker.
The other “Manhattan Project” has been 155mm artillery pieces, which is not often mentioned. When the war started Ukraine had only 152mm(or lesser) ex-soviet stuff, much like Russia still does. Those wore out, ran out of ammo, or were unable to find sufficient stocks of foreign 152mm.
Ukraine has subsequently received @900 modern 155mm, which is frankly amazing. Of these they have lost @200. But they are constantly receiving replacements and refurbs.
As for their current stocks I make it roughly
100 German Panzerhaubitze 2000
100 French Caesar
200 US/British F777 towed guns - these have suffered the most losses
150 2S22 Bohdana - Ukraine made based on Polish Krab? Im not sure. These are coming in at the fastest rate.
The rest are some mix of AS90 FH70 M109 etc.
Not good news for the US is the disappearance of the M1 tanks that arrived in Ukraine and did not get good reviews.
Better armed stalthy drones and drones used to pinpoint targets for larger missles will ultimately defeat heavily armored tanks. The era of land armored vehicles is coming to a close as are naval surface combatants. Russia and Ukraine may not have the means to obtain or manufacture such advanced lethal and targeting drones but China, the US and even the EU who are watching this conflict closely do. The Russo-Ukraine war is to military planners and designers in the 21st century what the Spanish Civil war was to their counterparts in the 20th century.
“I don’t know why they don’t just fire bazooka rockets from their Sherman Tommy cookers.”
Unknown WWII German soldier
“Pitch the LAW and give us B-40 (RPG) rockets.”
Unknown American soldier, a little later
Ukraine is a petri dish for 6th Gen Warfare.
Without North Korea Russia would be in worse condition with their artillery, estimates claim that about 60% of their shells come from their brother in arms and partner in war, Kim Jong Un .
The US has provided equipment on a very inefficient basis IMHO. The US shipped tremendous amounts of marginally useful crap like ex-Iraq Humvees and MRAPS, while holding back on Bradleys, of which the US has @4000 in reserve. I don’t know what effect policy dithering, US Pentagon bureaucratic turf defense (we cant give them more Bradleys! We may not have enough to equip US Reserve divisions (which dont exist) to ship to the Fulda Gap per War Plan ObsoleteChartreuse47! Oh wait...)
If you like, you may take some comfort in knowing the Germans have been vastly worse.
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