Javier Milei: President of Argentina - Freedom, Economics, and Corruption | Lex Fridman Podcast #453 (Video 1:53 and transcript summary)

The following is a conversation with Javier Milei, the president of Argentina. He is a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist, and economist who campaigned with a chainsaw symbolizing his promise to slash the corrupt bureaucracy of the state.

Milei stepped into the presidency one year ago, with Argentina on the brink of hyperinflation, deep in debt, and suffering from mass unemployment and poverty. He took this crisis head-on, transforming one of Latin America’s largest economies through pure free-market principles.

In just a few months, he achieved Argentina’s first fiscal surplus in 16 years and not only avoided hyperinflation but brought inflation down to its lowest in three years. We discuss all of this in detail, covering both his successes and the challenges he faced.

Lex Fridman: When did you first understand the value of freedom, especially economic freedom? Javier Milei: Well, I came to understand the ideas of freedom as an economic growth specialist back in 2013-2014. I noticed that per capita GDP over the last 2,000 years resembled a hockey stick. It remained almost constant until around 1800, after which it accelerated sharply. This rise coincided with a sevenfold population increase over 200 years.

Despite traditional economic theory condemning monopolies and concentrated structures, it was evident that living standards had improved immensely. Middle-income people lived better than Roman emperors, and extreme poverty dropped from 95% to less than 10%.

This contradiction led me to question my understanding. A team member suggested I read Murray Rothbard’s Monopoly and Competition. After reading it, I realized, “Everything I’ve taught about market structure in the last 20 years in microeconomics is wrong.”

That revelation led me to dive into the Austrian School of Economics. I read authors like Rothbard, Mises, Hayek, and Jesús Huerta de Soto. Books like Mises’ Human Action and Menger’s Principles of Political Economy transformed my thinking. These ideas shaped my approach to freedom and economics.

Lex Fridman: You’ve described yourself as an anarcho-capitalist. Can you explain your economic philosophy?

Javier Milei: Strictly speaking, I am an anarcho-capitalist. I despise the state and violence. I follow a definition of liberalism inspired by John Locke and Alberto Benegas Lynch Jr., which respects life, liberty, and property.

In an ideal world, I would advocate for complete freedom. However, real-life constraints mean I must adapt. I am a minarchist in practice, striving to minimize the state and eliminate unnecessary regulations. For example, we have established a deregulation ministry that removes between one and five regulations daily.

Our structural reforms are the largest in Argentine history, eight times larger than those of Carlos Menem. With just 15% of the representatives and 10% of the senators, we’re creating the freest country on the planet. Look at Ireland: over 40 years, it went from being the poorest country in Europe to having a per capita GDP 50% higher than the United States. That’s the path we’re on.

Lex Fridman: Describe the actions you took as president to address Argentina’s crisis.

Javier Milei: When I assumed office, Argentina was in chaos. Inflation was rising at 1% per day—3,700% annually—and poverty was near 50%. The central bank had negative reserves, and public debt was unsustainable.

We immediately reduced the number of ministries from 21 to 8, laid off 50,000 public employees, stopped public works, and eliminated economic subsidies by restoring utility rates. We achieved fiscal balance in just one month.

Additionally, we tackled poverty by eliminating corrupt intermediaries. For example, under the previous system, half of the assistance money intended for the poor was stolen by intermediaries. By removing them, recipients received double the resources.

Javier Milei: Poverty initially jumped to 57% because we made prices transparent and removed price controls. However, real wages have since been growing above inflation, and poverty has dropped to 46%.

Inflation, once projected to reach 17,000%, is now at 2.5% annually. The economy is recovering, with projections of 5-6% growth next year. Our reforms have also reduced the country’s risk, leading to lower interest rates and increased investment.

We’ve restored freedoms and implemented structural reforms, making Argentina one of the freest economies in the world. Analysts predict that Argentina could double its GDP per capita within 10 years, growing at a rate of 7% annually.

Lex Fridman: You've spoken about the caste—the corrupt political establishment. There are a lot of powerful people and groups that oppose your ideas. What does it take to fight when so much power is against you?

Javier Milei: Look, we have fought against corruption like never before in Argentina.

When we took office, there were about 900 roadblocks per year—people blocking streets and preventing free movement while still receiving social plans and a lot of money. As I mentioned earlier, we removed the middlemen of poverty, those who profited by stealing from the poor. This was a huge source of corruption.

For instance, when we cut their funding and enacted the anti-blockade protocol, the results were immediate. Those who blocked streets would lose welfare benefits, and those who broke the law would face jail time. Shortly after, one influential piquetero called for a demonstration, expecting 100,000 people to attend, but only 3,000 showed up. From that point on, street blockages stopped.

We also tackled corruption in public works and discretionary transfers to provinces. These transfers were often shrouded in obscure accounting practices, enabling collusion between the national government and provincial governors.

The Ministry of Human Capital has been relentless in filing corruption complaints—not in the media, but in court. This is unprecedented in Argentine history. Recently, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner was sentenced for corruption, and the very next day, we revoked her privileged pensions.

Another example is the abuse of disability pensions, where in one city, there were more disability pensions than actual people.

We’ve also restored freedom to the judiciary. Unlike previous administrations, we do not pressure the courts. During my government, not only was Cristina convicted, but also the two terrorist attacks carried out by Iran were condemned.

Every deregulation we implement removes privileges—whether from politicians, companies, or powerful groups. No one in Argentina has fought corruption as aggressively as we have.

Javier Milei: One of the greatest battles we’ve fought is against the corruption of the media and social media. I removed official advertising, which is why, despite generating incredible news weekly, the media speaks poorly of us.

These journalists, who claim to defend freedom of expression, actually want to censor ideas they dislike. They demand a monopoly on the microphone, allowing them to insult, offend, and manipulate, but they don’t want anyone to challenge them.

This is why many journalists in Argentina despise the X Network (formerly Twitter), while we libertarians love it. It provides a platform for open dialogue and exposes politicians and the media for their corruption.

In the past, journalists could extort people for money by threatening to ruin their reputations. Social media has disrupted this monopoly, removing the economic benefits of extortion. Naturally, this infuriates them.

Unfortunately, much of what you read in Argentine newspapers is false. Most journalists—though there are honorable exceptions—are liars, slanderers, and defamers. By challenging their monopoly, we’ve exposed their corruption and hypocrisy.

Lex Fridman: You’re not just fighting for economic freedom but also for freedom of speech.

The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 symbolized the failure of socialism. But socialism didn’t vanish; it shifted to cultural and societal battles, moving class struggle into areas like gender, race, and the environment.

Liberals were the first to champion equality before the law. Jeremy Bentham, in 1750, demanded equality for women. But the left radicalized these ideas, creating divisions and assigning rights that others must pay for, often leading to worse outcomes.

For example, in Argentina, the Ministry of Women didn’t reduce femicides—it presided over an increase. Hypocrisy runs rampant in these movements.

Environmental policies, too, often serve as excuses to impose taxes and fund bureaucrats. These ideas, rooted in Malthusianism, are as sinister as they are misguided, perpetuating the false belief that there isn’t enough room for everyone on Earth.

Socialism thrives by creating divisions—Black Lives Matter, indigenous movements, LGBT agendas—all tools for extending class struggle and extracting taxes.

The battle is on three fronts: economic, political, and cultural. Liberals have excelled in economics, creating prosperity. But we neglected the cultural battle, allowing socialism to infiltrate media, education, and institutions.

This cultural neglect is why places like Chile, despite their economic success, ultimately succumbed to socialism. Without fighting on all fronts, collapse is inevitable.

Lex Fridman: In this fight against corruption and powerful institutions, do you ever fear for your life?

There’s a Spanish song, Libre, which tells the story of Peter Fechter, an 18-year-old who tried to escape East Germany for freedom in the West. He was killed in the attempt, but his brief moment of freedom was worth everything.

In 1998, I visited Alcatraz and saw the recreation yard. It overlooked the San Francisco Bay, where prisoners could see the city growing and evolving while they remained confined. It made them fully realize the value of freedom.

My greatest hero is Moses, who confronted immense power and led his people to freedom.

I would rather die fighting for freedom than live without it. This cause is worth every sacrifice.

Lex Fridman: Another fighter for freedom, particularly freedom of speech, is your new friend Elon Musk. What do you admire, and what have you learned from your interactions with him?

Javier Milei: I have immense admiration for Elon Musk. He’s an unconventional person and a relentless fighter for the ideas of freedom. His work on X (formerly Twitter) has helped awaken the world to the dangers of the socialist and woke viruses. That alone makes him a hero in the history of humanity.

When I first met him, I expected a conversation typical of a successful businessman—someone focused on their enterprises, perhaps with a few exotic ventures. Businesspeople are admirable for being true benefactors of society, but they often stay within their domain. Elon Musk shattered my expectations.

Our first meeting was scheduled for 15 minutes but lasted over 45 minutes, even though he risked missing his flight. What struck me was his deep interest in demographics and population growth. He challenged me, humorously asking when I would contribute to population growth. I joked that I had five children—though they’re four-legged ones—and he quipped that they didn’t count.

In subsequent meetings, we discussed topics like the cultural battle and the importance of fighting antisemitism and intolerance, especially amid recent demonstrations targeting Jews. Musk’s unconventional intelligence and charm stand out, and our last conversation, which lasted over two hours, focused on freedom and what’s at stake for the United States.

Elon Musk also took a keen interest in Argentina’s Ministry of Deregulation and our chainsaw approach to reducing government overreach. He and others, including Donald Trump, are enthusiastic about replicating our model.

Lex Fridman: Elon and Vivek Ramaswamy are leading the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE). Based on your experience with Argentina’s reforms, what advice would you give them?

In Argentina, we’ve leveraged delegated powers from Congress to the executive branch, allowing us to resolve issues by decree. Federico Sturzenegger, our Minister of Deregulation, leads divisions dedicated to cutting regulations, reducing public spending, and restructuring government. Every day, they remove one to five economic restrictions.

Of course, removing privileges will anger those who lose them. But these people must justify their privileges to society—a very uncomfortable position. My advice is to push forward relentlessly.

Lex Fridman: President Trump allegedly called you his favorite president. What did you discuss, and what do you admire about him?

Javier Milei: President Trump has demonstrated a profound understanding of the cultural battle. He openly confronts socialism and the woke virus in his speeches, showing courage in the face of relentless attacks.

He has been insulted, criticized, and subjected to false accusations, yet he continues undeterred. I deeply relate to him because I’ve faced similar treatment from the media in Argentina.

Meeting Trump last night was inspiring, as was meeting Sylvester Stallone, whose philosophy of perseverance resonates deeply with me. Stallone’s message of continuing despite hardships mirrors Trump’s resilience.

Lex Fridman: Why is a close relationship with the United States important for Argentina?

Javier Milei: We’ve chosen the U.S. and Israel as geopolitical allies because they represent the values of the free Western world. Argentina aims to align with liberal democracies that confront autocratic regimes.

Economic Reform: Cutting public spending, deregulation, and currency competition. Security: Strengthening security forces, combating crime, and fighting drug trafficking. International Alignment: Aligning with the U.S. and Israel.

We are fulfilling these promises. Strengthening trade and investment ties with the U.S. is key to our vision, and we also aspire to join NATO.

Lex Fridman: One of your radical ideas as a candidate was dollarizing Argentina’s economy. Do you still support this?

Javier Milei: I advocate for currency competition and eliminating the central bank. If people choose the dollar, that’s their decision.

Today, Argentina already allows transactions in any currency. As the economy grows and the peso’s share shrinks relative to the dollar, closing the central bank will become feasible. If I had the resources, I would dollarize immediately.

Our focus has been on cleaning up the central bank’s balance sheet, addressing its debts, and stabilizing the monetary base. This gradual approach ensures that dollarization, if chosen, happens seamlessly.

Lex Fridman: Who is the greatest football player of all time—Maradona or Messi?

Javier Milei: I’ve seen Maradona play and admired his immense talent, but without a doubt, Messi is the greatest football player of all time.

Messi excels in every position from midfield forward, something no other player has achieved. His technical brilliance, creativity, and consistency set him apart. His performances defy human logic, much like watching Usain Bolt run—it seems physically impossible.

Javier Milei: Faith has been a cornerstone of my life, especially in recent years as I’ve studied Judaism and the Torah. God is the Creator, the One.

Freedom and faith are deeply intertwined. The invisible hand of the market and the hand of God work in harmony.

Javier Milei: The tech revolution and social media have awakened people to the value of freedom. Despite efforts by bureaucrats and elites to enslave us, a wave of freedom has been unleashed.

Javier Milei: It’s my war cry, rooted in my faith and inspired by the Maccabees’ victory against oppression. It represents my unwavering commitment to freedom.

Javier Milei: Thank you for this thoughtful conversation and for your professionalism.

Here’s a word-for-word formatting the part of the interview on corruption in Argentina:

### **Corruption**

**Lex Fridman:** You’ve spoken about the caste, the corrupt political establishment. So there’s a lot of powerful people and groups that are against your ideas.

**Javier Milei:** What does it take to fight when so much power is against you?

Look, we have fought against corruption like never before in Argentina. In fact, when we took office, for example, there were about 900 roadblocks per year. That is, people who made a habit of blocking the streets. They prevented free movement.

And besides, they were given social plans. And they were given a lot of money. If you remember, when I started by explaining the cuts, one of the things I said was that we removed the middlemen of poverty, in other words, the managers of poverty—those who lived by stealing from the poor. Well, that is a huge source of corruption.

In fact, when we did that, two days later, one of the most renowned and influential piqueteros called for a demonstration. He claimed that 50,000 people would attend because he was actually expecting 100,000. So he wanted to showcase it as a success.

And so then, let’s say, with the decision made in Human Capital to cut their funding, the anti-blockade protocol was also enacted, where those who block the streets wouldn’t receive welfare benefits, and those who broke the law would go to jail.

All of that. And also, we were informing this through transportation channels. Well, in that march, they expected to have 100,000 people there, and actually, it turned out to be 3,000 people. And from that point on, they didn’t block the streets anymore.

We also evidently put an end to that corruption. One of the things that also generated a lot of corruption was public works.

Another thing that led to significant acts of corruption were the discretionary transfers to provinces. In general, these transfers were made to the provinces with accounting as obscure as possible. So, the national government, in collusion with the governors, let’s say, the money ended up being used for other things.

Not only that, with which we have already done many things. Furthermore, the Ministry of Human Capital is always filing complaints in court—not in the media—in court.

Acts of corruption like never before in Argentine history. Not only that, but also in terms of condemning corruption. That is, we have done—for example, two days ago, it was condemned. Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner got a sentence for corruption. I mean, due to corruption. And the next day, that is yesterday, we took away their privileged pensions.

At the same time, we are, for example, we have discovered that Kirchnerism used disability pensions for acts of corruption. For example, there is a city that has more disability pensions than people.

In other words, to give you an idea of the things being done in Argentina. And also, in Argentina, we have restored freedom to the judiciary. We do not pressure the judiciary.

And this is so true that during my government, not only was Cristina convicted, but also the two terrorist attacks carried out by Iran were condemned.

If there is a government that is truly fighting against corruption, it is us. Not only that, but also with each deregulation, it is a privilege that we take away—either from a politician, a preliminary company, or a power group. That is also very powerful.

No one in Argentina has ever fought against corruption the way we have. In fact, I will move on to something that is deeply corrupt and one of my great battles: the corruption of the media and social media.

That is to say, I removed the official advertising. That’s why you will see that even though we generate wonderful news, every week in large quantity, the media speak terribly.

In other words, they demand to have a monopoly on the microphone. That is, they are entitled to insult, hurt, offend, and they don’t want anyone to bother them. And they expect me not to even respond.

That’s why a large part of journalism in Argentina hates the X Network. And that’s why we, the liberal libertarians, love the X Network—because we can all say what we want.

However, let’s say these supposed journalists who defend freedom of expression, actually what they want is to censor the ideas they don’t like. And of course, because they are leftists, because they are wokes, because they can’t stand the competition.

Because if they had to fight face to face, hand to hand, on a level playing field, when it comes to ideas, they would lose. Because they were a failure in the economic, social, and cultural aspects.

And also, we must not forget that those murderers called socialists killed 150 million people. So they clearly cannot fight on equal terms. Therefore, they demand that social networks have censorship and that the truth cannot be told to them.

Because when you tell a socialist the truth, they cry, claiming it’s hate speech. No, it’s not hate speech. It’s that you are useless people who have ruined the planet.

They have made the planet much worse. And fortunately today, thanks to social media, especially due to the enormous and brave work of Elon Musk and the role of Twitter—today, X—right, allows information to flow, which makes it possible, let’s say, to expose politicians. And also expose the media.

And that’s why journalists in Argentina are so violent. Why? Because before, they could, for instance, a journalist went and, for example, he would go to a person and he would throw a folder at them and say, “If you don’t give me X amount of money, I am going to publish all of this and tarnish your reputation.”

And I know for a fact, a case of a journalist who carried out this extortion twice to a businessman. That businessman told him that he wasn’t going to pay, and evidently, the journalist did it.

Obviously, they went to court. There was a trial, and that journalist lost both times. But that process is very slow. And in the meantime, they smeared. So since the justice system takes a long time, so what is the problem?

The problem is that in the meantime, your life got dirtied. So why can journalists do all this? Well, that’s why they dislike X. They dislike social media. They dislike the new form of communication because it took away their monopoly over the microphone.

And by taking away the monopoly over the microphone, it removed the economic benefits of extortion. So clearly, that’s another battle I’m fighting.

You read a newspaper in Argentina, and 85% of what you read is a lie. That is to say, the fundamental characteristic of most journalists—not all, but the vast majority of journalists in Argentina, with some honorable exceptions—is that they are liars, slanderers, and defamers.

And if the monopoly they demand were still in place that they want to reign again, I have no doubt that they would demand money in exchange for silence. Because that’s what they are. They are extortionists. They are thieves. They are corrupt.

And then, of course, obviously, when you take away a privilege from a sector, they get upset. Well, welcome to freedom.

**Lex Fridman:** So you’re not only fighting for economic freedom, you’re fighting for freedom of speech.

**Javier Milei:** Exactly.

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