Posted on 02/27/2024 8:25:32 AM PST by Mariner
Polish President Andrzej Duda has said that Kyiv's allies have not reached an agreement to send troops to Ukraine, as French President Emmanuel Macron had previously suggested.
Source: Duda, after an informal summit on support for Ukraine in Paris, quoted by the AP news agency
Details: Duda said that the hottest debate was over whether to send troops to Ukraine and "no agreement was reached regarding this issue."
"Opinions differ here, but there [have been] no such decisions," he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at yahoo.com ...
So, Poland and France haven’t agreed yet to attack Russia? Hubris that this was even a debate.
I don’t think that the reptilian governments ruling Europe will take the risk of offending European voters that don’t want to be conscripted to die by the million in savage trench warfare. European citizens are becoming enraged and leaning towards revolution.
Governments can be evil or stupid or useless but they cannot survive if they are all three.
> the hottest debate was over whether to send troops to Ukraine <
I don’t have a dog in this Russia/Ukraine fight. But my goodness, there should be no debate about that at all. A hard no, period.
But, wait. This could be a bluff to bring Putin to the bargaining table. If so, it might well backfire as it feeds into centuries-old Russian suspicions.
I don’t know why they think that european troops would survive any better than the Ukes …. Or if they think somehow Russia would not target al troops in Ukraine regardless of nationality, as they have already been doing.
So if a French Bde gets wiped out by a Russian missile strike…what is Macaroon going to do about it? What are their stocks of weapons and ammo for protracted hi intensity warfare? A week?
“...a bluff to bring Putin to the bargaining table...”
From numerous articles and interviews (Carlson) I have read and heard, Putin wants a negotiation. It is the US and NATO not willing to even think about ending the war (some on FR). NATO is still fighting with the Cold War mentality.
> Putin wants a negotiation. <
I’m sure he does, but only if Russia gets everything it wants. Same with Ukraine.
As I see it, those eastern Ukrainian provinces are lost. Russia occupies them, and will never voluntarily give them back. What would it take for Ukraine to agree to that?
Russia should buy those provinces for a large amount of gold and natural gas. That way, both sides save face. It would be something like the Gadsden Purchase.
I believe Trump could pull this deal off. But not Biden or any NATO leaders. You mentioned a Cold War mentality. Yes. But I think it’s more than that. Every leader (on both sides) has a WWI mentality. Keep shoving men into the meat grinder. Just one more big push should do it.
On and on it goes.
Agree! But if Zelensky realizes that US support is drying up, and the Europeans cannot, or will not ever provide sufficient support, maybe he will come to his senses and understand he must know Russia can have a piece of the pie now, but if not they will be in Kiev within a few weeks.
Death.
I’m really startled that Macron would even suggest this, or entertain debate for more than about 10 seconds. That’s a major shift for him.
> I’m really startled that Macron would even suggest this… <
Macron might not want to hear it, but like Zelensky he’s just a bit player in all this. Not much more than a puppet.
We know who the bad guy is on the Russian side. It’s Putin. He sent tanks across a sovereign border. But we don’t know for sure who’s the bad guy on the Ukrainian side. Someone (or some group) is provoking Russia, and has been doing so for quite some time.
So who are the good guys in this conflict? There are no good guys. If Trump returns to the White House he’d be the first.
‘...Someone (or some group) is provoking Russia...”
It doesn’t take much to provoke Russia. Just ask the Republic of Georgia. If you attempt to maintain independence and basic freedoms that will provoke Russia. If you remove Lenin statues that provokes Russia. If you maintain your local culture, that provokes Russia.
Liberate Alchevsk! Death to the Russian invaders.
Sorry. I should have been more specific. NATO’s eastward expansion is what I was referring to as being provocative to Russia. The United States went crazy over information that the Soviet Union was putting missives in Cuba. Yet we expect Russia to remain indifferent as NATO expands eastward.
That does NOT mean Putin was justified when he invaded Ukraine. Putin overreacted. That makes him a war criminal.
As I noted earlier, there are no good guys here.
The Ukrainians are not only good guys but the greatest of guys. They have stood up, fought unbelievably well, and have sacrificed much to liberate such places as Kherson.
NATO was zero threat to Russia. It was oriented defensively. Russia’s behavior even caused Sweden to drop its long-cherished neutrality and clamor for joining the defensive alliance.
> NATO was zero threat to Russia. It was oriented defensively. <
I actually posted that exact thing here about six months ago. Then another FReeper gently corrected me. NATO was used offensively both in Libya and in Kosovo. By golly, he was right.
It is also worth noting that Russia was invaded not once but three times from Europe (by Napoleon, by Wilhelm II, by Hitler). Those invasions are part of the Russian memory. It is foolish to discount that memory.
> The Ukrainians are not only good guys but the greatest of guys. <
If you’re referring to the average Ukrainians, I most certainly agree. They are being subject to a terrible war, one their country did not start.
As for the Ukrainian leadership, I just don’t know. Are they really behaving in their country’s best interests, or are they just puppets?
So if NATO interferes in a couple of small countries in the former Yugoslavia, that makes them a threat to the eleven-time-zone country of Russia. No!
You could make a case that many world leaders, past and present, have been greatly influenced by powers behind the throne, but typically the string pullers have rivals and conflicts of their own. And sometimes they pull the string but don’t get the full response as the ego of the front man increases.
> So if NATO interferes in a couple of small countries in the former Yugoslavia, that makes them a threat to the eleven-time-zone country of Russia. No! <
I won’t argue against that. But in many ways it’s like a game of poker. You should not consider what your opponent’s best move is. You should consider what your opponent *thinks* his best move is.
NATO might be no threat to Russia. But if Russia thinks it is, that must be taken into account. And so far it hasn’t.
I’m heading off to do some shopping, so I will give you the last word. And let me say this. It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. Too many of these Ukraine vs. Russia conversations devolve into name-calling. This one hasn’t. Even though we disagree on some points, you have given me something to think about.
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