Posted on 12/12/2023 12:47:45 AM PST by Mount Athos
Got me, dropped, with help from javelins, 777 and himars arrived and Kharkiv and kherson happened after their arrival
Stopped and pushed back okay
Still my point stands, a relatively small number of western weapons allowed large reversals of Ukranian territory taken by Russia
US/NATO could have negotiated a peaceful settlement before the shooting started. But they just ignored RU.
Right after the shooting started UKR and RU were in talks for a ceasefire (with Turkey and Israel moderating) — US/NATO scuttled that.
US/NATO thirsted for this war, they thought it was a surefire way to bring RU and Putin down once and for all. At no cost except for 100000s of UKR & RU lives and a few 100s of billion dollars. What could go wrong?
UKR could have been a thriving neutral state that benefited from being a gateway between the west and east. Instead they will be a broken state and a broken society.
What was the “peaceful” settlement have been?
Russia gets what they say they want(for now)?
Ie “peace in our time “. Worked out well for Czechs, hitler was given parts of Czechoslovakia(esp the part with defensive structures), then hitler marched in and took the rest.
Minimalist goals stated by the Russians themselves was the four oblasts and a land corridor stretching to Odessa (cutting Ukraine from Black Sea and linking with Transnistria) and a Russian “sympathetic “ govt in Kiev.
Yup the blood shed could have been avoided if the west had just given hitler er ah Putin what he wanted(rightfully deserved to many) and all would have been fine. /s
The status of Ukraine as neutral or a member of EU and/or NATO, was/is none of Russias business, desired are another subject and Putin put his desires into play. Regardless of “peace” settlement his goals remained the same
Prior to invasion, Russia was doing fine economically (well at least ethnic Russia was), trading with west, making loads of petro products. NATO has been on Russian border for years with Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia (Estonia is only a spits distance from Moscow, unlike Ukraine) and most of Europe was in a defense de investment mode(as President Trump pointed out and more than happy to send billions to Russia for energy), not exactly a strategy to invade and carve up the Russian federation.
But apparently the linch pin(according to pro Russian folks) was the incorporation of Ukraine, and then the trap would be snapped….
No invasion, Ukraine prospers, Russia prospers. Instead much of Ukraine lies in ruin, and Russia may get some territory, but at what cost and what benefit?
NATO has expanded, and is expanding(Sweden and Finland were never going to join NATO prior to invasion), Russian economy is struggling expending terrific resources on putins dreams, 10s of thousands dead, and wounded.
Folks like yourself say this could have been avoided if “peace” talks had been allowed and Ukraine carved up per Putins demands, i say all of this could have need avoided if Putin had not invaded. The rest is all most of the “peace in our time “ history rhyming scenario
You are obviously going to believe what you want, as I do
Just my 2 cents
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