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To: Cronos
By those standards Ukraine won

I think we've identified the main problem. You don't even know the desired end state for Ukraine. Not only do you not have a path to victory, you don't know what "victory" means.

26 posted on 10/03/2023 12:17:05 AM PDT by Right_Wing_Madman
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To: Right_Wing_Madman
"You don't even know the desired end state for Ukraine.

We do know what Putin's original desired end state for Ukraine was - he signaled it from day one with his statements that "it was not a legitimate state", that it was really part of Russia, that it should be "demilitarized" i.e. ready for him to occupy with no issue.

Putin's desired end state did not materialize thanks to the actions of the Ukrainians in the battle of Hostomel and of Kyiv

the desired end state for Ukrainians themselves is to NOT be under the Kremlin's thumb - this is true for Ukrainian and for Russian speaking Ukrainians

Not only do you not have a path to victory, you don't know what "victory" means."

Victory for Ukraine, as I said above, is not becoming a vassal state to the Kremlin nor assimilated into Muscowy

As I said above

Putin’s objectives in invading Ukraine were to establish Russian control over Ukraine without facing significant Western resistance and break the unity of NATO. He claimed the goal was to “demilitarize” Ukraine.

By those standards Ukraine won — like a potential kidnapping victim who fought against the kidnapper and broke a leg, is bleeding, but is still not captured by the kidnapper (Putin’s Muscowy).

By that standard, Ukraine won - it’s now trying to ensure that the kidnapper never has the ability to even attempt to kidnap Ukraine again.

After 2014/2015 Ukraine thought Putin would be satisfied with his pound of flesh in taking both Crimea and de facto the Donetsk People’s republic + Luhansk People’s republic.

But Putin was not satisfied and went for a decapitation move to vassalize Ukraine.

He failed but is only waiting for the world to forget so he can complete his goal. The Ukrainians on the other hand got invigorated and now have a sense of identity (thanks to Putin’s invasion) and won’t submit to the darkness.


35 posted on 10/03/2023 2:11:03 AM PDT by Cronos (I identify as an ambulance, my pronounces are wee/woo)
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