Thank you for your answer Red6.
Here are mine:
You wrote:
“There was a lot that happened before Russia invaded. If you use the invasion as the starting point for determining fault, then we were the bad guys going into Afghanistan, Iraq... We obviously had a reason going into Afghanistan (harbouring OBL...).”
My answer: You are fundamentally wrong here.
You can’t in any way compare America’s INVASION of Iraq and Afghanistan with Russia’s forced ANNEXATIONS of many Ukrainian regions!
The difference between INVASION and ANNEXATION is massive.
If America had annexed Iraq for example. America would have done what Russia did in Ukraine...
...like this:
1- The Iraqi flag would have been banned.
America would have waved its own flag all over Iraq’s official buildings.
2- And the Iraq word would have been banned, because Iraq would be no other than The United States of America!
Not bad hm? THAT is what ANNEXATION means.
3- The Iraqi people would be given US passports by force.
Yes, THAT is what ANNEXATION means.
This is exactly how Russia has treated Ukraine.
All the regions Russia has taken are now PART OF RUSSIA itself, Russian flags all over, they force citizens there to get Russian passports.
Also, the schools in the annexed regions, are now following the programing dictated by Moscow.
So you see now, the difference between short lived and comparatively innocent US invasions VS in-depth Russian ANNEXATIONS?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You also said:
“That stuff which happened before Russia invaded matters: i.e. NATO East expansion, violations of Minsk, Ballistic Missile Treaty withdrawal.”
My answer: When it come to NATO or EU. It’s each and every nations sovereign decision and right to decide to which organisation they want to adhere to. Russia CAN’T dictate what free nations can or cannot do.
The violation of Minsk you say... What about Russia’s violation of the Budapest Memorandum!? THAT one is the BIG thing.
The violation of a certain part of the ballistic missile treaty was made by TRUMP. Why? Because Russia had already cheated that treaty to death anyway. Only the USA was abiding to the treaty. Trump was just honest and said, since Russia was ignoring the deal, let’s just finish it off officially. That’s all.
Then you also said:
“1. This war was entirely avoidable.”
My answer: Oh yes it was. The war was launched my the deep-state warmongering machine in the Kremlin. Pure stupidity.
“2. It was a high risk move to push NATO, basically stonewalling the Russians and their concerns (making this into a win-lose situation, basically given them the middle finger), and war was a possible outcome.”
My answer: Basically, every territory that once was under Russian control, but which got its autonomie, while not joining NATO has been attacked by Russia!
No wonder every small weak European nations are rushing to join NATO. If they don’t, they’ll be invaded!
“3. That if a war started, Ukraine would be severely damaged and lose more of its land, as in 2014.”
My Answer: Yes, Russian invasions do terrible damage to free nations.
“It was a gamble, we had been arming Ukraine for a while and the cost to Russia will be high if they invade. The gamble being: can we simply force our way and will Russia acquiesce?”
My answer: Trump was the one who initiated the process of sending weapons to Ukraine, because he respected the Budapest Memorandum deal in protecting Ukraine from Russia. Obama though only sent blankets to Ukraine.
Then you said:
“Ask yourself this simple question: what national security need was there for us when we offered NATO membership to Ukraine? Was this really about our national security?”
My answer:
Wrong. Ukraine demanded to adhere NATO. It was afraid being attacked by Russia, thats why.
And Russia did attack !!
If Ukraine would have been part of NATO, there would not have been ANY war in Ukraine! Zero DEATHS!!
THAT was the biggest mistake. That NATO REFUSED to let Ukraine in!!
So you see... you looked at the whole thing in an upside down way somehow.
There’s to much to cover. It would take a book.
Yes Russia annexed part of Ukraine, but that is because we’re taking over Ukraine, and they are claiming what is ethnic Russian (the majority in the annexed areas do NOT see the Russians as invaders and the nationalist Ukrainians as hero defenders.).
In the Soviet era, much of the industry was built in some of these areas, and historically this land at different times was part of Russia. Again, there is a back story that is mostly ignored in our one sided MSM.
And yes, the nationalist Ukrainians did ban the use of the Russian language, they did close Orthodox churches (still being done BTW), they did overthrow or remove Russian friendly political figures that had local popular support...
They speak Russian: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png
They vote for the pro Russia candidate: http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/media/ukraine_map_region_vote.jpg
And then we want to (((pretend))) this is about sovereignty, democracy and human rights.
They once were Russian: https://youtu.be/0lHLwP6RUug?feature=shared
We invaded Iraq based on a lie: WMD: https://www.dw.com/en/the-iraq-war-in-the-beginning-was-the-lie/a-43301338
A lie, just like all this sovereignty, democracy, human rights babble today regards Ukraine is a lie. Ukraine is not a democracy, they are not sovereign if under our control any more than under Russian control, and they have a horrible human rights record.
In Iraq, we NEVER withdrew, that too is a lie (it was politically beneficial for Obama to help in his re-election). We simply reduced our presence to about 5,000+ men until recently when we cut it to a little over 3,000 not counting de facto mercenaries, local security, and OGA. We are an “occupation force” in the literal sense of the word. If you had a poll in Iraq you’d see that practically no one wants us there, that they view us as an occupation force, and if you make people do things that works against their own best self interest, if your rules and authority supercedes all local authority, with the use of force if necessary, then you indeed are an occupation force (do what I say, or I’ll hurt you).
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/us-military-presence-in-iraq-in-spotlight/1696285# The Turks will publish this because they are actively working against us in Iraq despite being our NATO “ally.” Most US media will be silent on this. Because our watchdog and free media which is owned by the same people who wanted this war in Ukraine, because Biden is a Democrat, the Euros are on board (they too stand to benefit), the Western non propagandist media is in total lockstep. The only difference between Iraq and Ukraine is that today the Euros are on board with us, because they too have economic interests at stake, and today you have all the Western media lockstep. Germany, France, whose state run media were 100% anti Iraq war, today are 100% with us. But ironically Iraq had more justification than Ukraine. There you really did have human rights abuses, a mad man, violations of no fly and no wheel zones (armistice of 1991), long range missiles, violation of the free movement of inspectors... But in Ukraine we literally have “nothing,” except make belief, rhetoric, pretend arguments that are all hiding a true entirely economic motivation.
Frame this war in the Ukraine the way it most likely is: our multinational corporations and oligarchs which lead them and influence government disproportionately want Ukraine in the EU and NATO. We decided that we’re going to peel Ukraine from Russia. But this has serious security implications for Russia, so for them it’s not just an economic motivation as it is for us. The Russians are willing to pay a lot and for a long time for this. Even if Putin leaves, whoever comes in next would be confronted with the same security concern and will likely not change course. This war wasn’t caused by some imperialistic motivation or Soviet nostalgia, the mind of a madman as we portray it, rather hard cold facts and numbers and a security establishment in Russia that is screaming “danger.”
Finally, if we’re going to take over Ukraine in our usual MO, then Russia is going to take those parts where they can reasonably lay claim on and easily take and hold (those places that are majority ethnic Russian, once were Russia, and where Russia helped pay/build up in the Soviet era.).
But I got it. If we invade it’s to liberate: it was all about Iraqi “freedom,” right?” We shoot freedom missiles and drop democracy bombs and when we go to war (for economic reasons) it’s always moral and people don’t die, get crippled, cities and infrastructure isn’t damaged... but those evil Russians.
