Posted on 07/25/2023 2:35:20 AM PDT by Cronos
Governments start wars in pursuit of various objectives, from conquering territory to changing the regime of a hostile state. Once a war begins, the stakes are immediately raised. It is one of the paradoxes of war that even as its original objectives drift out of reach or are cast aside, the necessity of not being seen as the loser only grows in importance—such importance, in fact, that even if winning is no longer possible, governments will still persevere to show that they have not been beaten.
...All of these dynamics are evident in Russia’s war against Ukraine. r Putin set as his objectives the “denazification” and “demilitarization” of Ukraine. - By the first, he meant regime change, in which case the war has clearly been a failure. - As for demilitarization, Ukraine is on its way to becoming the most militarized country in Europe. - Many of the Russian speakers in Ukraine on whose behalf Putin claimed to be acting now prefer to speak Ukrainian, while the Russian-speaking areas of the Donbas have been battered, deindustrialized, and depopulated because of this ruinous war.
...Russian forces have failed to take complete control of any of the four oblasts that Putin claimed for Russia in September2022. Much of the ground initially seized after the full-scale invasion has been relinquished..
Putin is not close to achieving any of his war aims while the price of his gambit grows ever steeper.
...Being stuck with bits and pieces of Ukrainian territory with hostile populations, massive reconstruction bills, and long frontlines with an undefeated Ukraine, would not look like a big win—especially when set against the many casualties incurred by Russian forces, the degradation of the Russian army, the sputtering Russian economy, and the knock to Russia’s standing as a great and influential power.
(Excerpt) Read more at foreignaffairs.com ...
Putin will get most of what he wants in the end. At a cost of trillions and many lives. But hey, people at least profited again from a war.
You’ve chosen to define his plans as steps that you see him as not having achieved.
You’re one of the heaviest, most reliable, Euro propagandists on the site, which is why a CFR FR article is a perfect shortcut for you to post here!
You and your globalist allies have this very sick and demonic fetish about murdering 150 million people, of whom many are Christians. If you're so gung-ho about mass murder, I suggest you board the next plane for Kiev and sign up to fight. Go show us how it's done. Leave the rest of us out of your sick and demented plan for genocide and WW3.
That comment, sir, is worthy of a Clinton. Governments don't invest, they spend. Additionally I would highlight your phrase "strategic debt." Really?
$32,000,000,000,000.00 and rising rapidly is neither "strategic" nor "investment." It is debt.
If the US government has not officially announced its goal of "the extermination of the Russian federation," then your 'policy' statement does not represent the nation, conservative or liberal.
But lastly, revisiting your first statement, "Investment pays off in the future," I agree with the sentence. What payoff has come from the many wars and police actions and kinetic actions of the last years since Clinton bombed Serbia and called it support for Kosovo, which is today still embroiled in conflict and 90 percent Albanian Muslims? Did Iraq pay off? How about that "war we can win (Obama)" in Afghanistan? Have we got paid for our war in Syria yet? How did we get paid for 58K dead Americans in Vietnam? More questions, but I am sure you get my point. I don't get yours, using your own metric.
And Ukraine has $Billions in the bank...could buy some decent weaponry with it.
The Ukrainians I work with and/or know in Poland, Germany and the UK all are - every one of them - expressing their hopes to go back, some day.
None have expressed a desire to settle permanently in the lands they are in
Medea Benjamin, the boss of Code Pink, shills for Russia. She uses the exact same false arguments that Code Pink Freepers do.
Democratic Socialists of America runs a campaign to stop sending arms to Ukraine and blames the Russian invasion on America. They are interchangeable with “Democratic Socialist Freepers”.
"Democratic Socialists of America runs a campaign to stop sending arms to Ukraine and blames the Russian invasion on America. They are interchangeable with 'Democratic Socialist Freepers'."
Clever tiptoeing up to the line gambit, isn't it.
There are Democratic Socialist Freepers, but no names. Such a clever assertion is too clever by half.
Conflation is in view as well, "1) campaign to stop sending arms to Ukraine and 2) blames the Russian invasion on America." The two can be separate, but in debates one is not supposed to notice the conflation.
As to the "campaign to stop sending arms," this sort of voice has also complained of not sending arms fast enough, i.e. cluster bombs which the Biden administration is "late" sending. Almost as if the proponents of ":arming Ukraine" are doing it slowly enough to actually not completely and effectively arm Ukraine. See how that works? No mention of what that is doing to the national debt, because there is also no mention of sending MONEY. Just weapons (which of course will have to be replaced).
The second half of the conflation is also interesting, blaming " the Russian invasion on America." I haven't actually read any Freeper doing that, but then again....
What seems obvious is that Russia has indeed invaded and continues to fight with Ukraine. Who thinks this untrue? So who among Freepers is blaming America?
When one erects straw-men, another may notice the straw-men being erected.
I herein affirm my view that you are not among the Democratic Socialist Freepers. Neither am I. And I suspect neither are others on this particular thread. Going too far in a debate usually means going too far in a debate.
She’s not an elected Demonrat, she’s a Green Party Stalinist who prefers and shills for unadulterated Marxist-Stalinist regimes, such as in Venezuela (certainly not for Christian Russia !). Curiously, despite this, seeing that she stated the regime in D.C. is preventing peace is not a false statement. How else, of course, can Plugs the Pedo funnel $$ to his corrupt child sex-trafficking allies in The Ukraine to get his kickbacks in return ?
Anyway, I’m still waiting for this list of elected Demonrats supporting Russia/Putin. Try keeping up.
“None have expressed a desire to settle permanently in the lands they are in”
It would be nice for them if they could, but it seems unlikely for many, given the circumstances.
There are plenty of fringe Democrats who hold this view of appeasement (as there are fringe Republicans). What made it easier for Nancy Pelosi’s pimp hand to get her House Democrats in line is that the Republicans holding this view, like Marjorie Taylor Greene etc..., are well know low reputation boogiemen and she could threaten the far lefties like Ro Khanna and AOC with that. Yet some 39 House Democrats signed an appeasement letter along the lines of the talking points of Democratic Socialists of America and “Democratic Socialists of FR”.
All in all only about 4% of the Republicans view Putin positively. That’s a real-life poll. The fringe views largely exist only online.
The individual you’re quoting is another of the aforementioned disreputable set on FR (the “rape” comment from yesterday in this same thread). I’ve had every single solitary troll, many of whom seem more like AI-bots (and very light on “intelligence”) try to best me in debate for well over a year on this subject, and their having lost every time, are reduced to petty insults, non-sequiturs, straw man arguments and other various and sundry keyboard-slamming hysterics.
I wouldn’t really attribute “cleverness” to said poster, so much as an inability to answer the question which Demonrat elected officials today support anyone other than Zelensky and The Ukraine as a “heroic cause” to commit billions in bribes to. The poster to whom I posed the question, who resides in the land of the Poles, has seemingly disappeared after they couldn’t also similarly respond. Gosh, you’d think if I was spewing the Demonrat agenda, you could find ANY elected Demonrat who agrees with my points. So much for that...
Is there any other kind of Demonrat but a fringe Demonrat ? The party has been taken over by globalist corporatist Marxist loons obsessed with worshipping abortion, sodomy and genital mutilation of kids.
Again, which members are prominently and unapologetically supporting Russia and Putin ?
BTW, who are the “Democratic Socialists of FR” ? I’d think those would be the ones pushing the George Soros position on The Ukraine, which is the total annihilation of Russia, no matter if it triggers WW3. The Malthusian globalist warmonger trolls who get aroused at the thought of 150 million dead Russians. That of course would make it easy for Red China to march across and take a degenerate and deliberately divided Europe, and spread the Beijing version of Lebensraum. They’ll get around to us, as they’ve been gladly selling us the rope to hang us with for some time now. Well, not like you really care, anyhow.
The organization “Democratic Socialists of America” is running a campaign to stop military aid to Ukraine and they blame America for the Russian invasion.
This is from one of their statements:
“We recognize that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose US and NATO military interventionism and the tens of billions in military aid and weapons shipments which only further exacerbates the war and undermine a negotiated settlement, as well as sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians.”
The threads on the topic are full of fake conservatives saying the exact same thing.
To you was written: "There are plenty of fringe Democrats who hold this view of appeasement (as there are fringe Republicans). What made it easier for Nancy Pelosi’s pimp hand to get her House Democrats in line is that the Republicans holding this view..." COMPLETELY forgets -- or ignores -- the Z presentation of that autographed battle flag to Pelosi as the House passed on big money for the Ukrainian side in the non-NATO Ukrainian was with non-NATO Russia.
This gambit being played out is most interesting, because trying to place Pelosi into an "appeasement" camp alongside Russia is about as laughable as can be. Especially as the "Russia-gate" Democrat antics used for years to attack Trump when he was in office was all about attacking, not appeasing, Russia.
Hold to your rhetorical "guns." There is ammunition aplenty, and some of it is being provided by the seeming opponents who are shooting themselves in their own feet.
Names, please. Which Demonrat elected officials are explicitly supporting Russia and Putin against The Ukraine and Zelensky ?
Who are the “Democratic Socialists of FR” ? You didn’t answer that. Names here, please.
The only “fake Conservatives” around here are the ones pushing the Soros agenda for WW3 over The Ukraine.
Here is 30.
Pramila Jayapal
Chair
Earl Blumenauer
Member of Congress
Cori Bush
Member of Congress
Page 2
Jesús G. “Chuy” García
Member of Congress
Raúl M. Grijalva
Member of Congress
Sara Jacobs
Member of Congress
Ro Khanna
Member of Congress
Barbara Lee
Member of Congress
Ilhan Omar
Member of Congress
Ayanna Pressley
Member of Congress
Sheila Jackson Lee
Member of Congress
Mark Pocan
Member of Congress
Nydia M. Velázquez
Member of Congress
Page 3
Gwen S. Moore
Member of Congress
Yvette D. Clarke
Member of Congress
Henry C. “Hank” Johnson, Jr.
Member of Congress
Rashida Tlaib
Member of Congress
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Member of Congress
Mondaire Jones
Member of Congress
Peter A. DeFazio
Member of Congress
Jamaal Bowman, Ed.D.
Member of Congress
Marie Newman
Member of Congress
Alma S. Adams, Ph.D.
Member of Congress
Page 4
Chellie Pingree
Member of Congress
Jamie Raskin
Member of Congress
Bonnie Watson Coleman
Member of Congress
Mark Takano
Member of Congress
André Carson
Member of Congress
Donald M. Payne, Jr.
Member of Congress
Mark DeSaulnier
Member of Congress
For your edification, some of those individuals are no longer in office.
What specific votes in Congress have been taken where they 100% support Russia and Putin ? Please list the bills individually and which of the members supported them. I’ve not heard any elected Demonrats speaking out favoring Russia and Putin over Zelensky and The Ukraine. That would get them primaried out of office.
Also, you’ve failed to answer the previous question twice:
“Who are the “Democratic Socialists of FR” ? You didn’t answer that. Names here, please.”
One notes you got a list from the easily researched Democrat Socialists of America. Their URL: https://www.dsausa.org/
No secret there. They have a statement, "The Democratic Socialists of America condemns Russia's invasion of Ukraine and demands immediate diplomacy and de-escalation to resolve this crisis. We stand in solidarity with the working classes of Ukraine and Russia who will undoubtedly bear the brunt of this war, and with antiwar protestors in both countries and around the world who are calling for a diplomatic resolution."
That statement ends with "No war but class war." Yup. No secret.
And, yeah, even they condemned "Russia's invasion of Ukraine ." In those words.
As to these Leftist in Congress, they play "for" and "against" quite nicely. One reads, "Liberal U.S. lawmakers withdraw Ukraine letter after blowback"
Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/us-congress-progressives-withdraw-letter-urging-negotiations-end-ukraine-war-2022-10-25/
And "Jayapal withdraws letter on Ukraine policy amid Democratic anger"
Source: "https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/25/politics/pramila-jayapal-ukraine-letter-democratic-backlash/index.html
For and against. And against and for. And letter and withdraw letter. It is the DSA way, it seems. Yes and no. That's quite a fine game, eh?
As to the “Democratic Socialists of FR,” I am encouraged to think such a list will be forthcoming. Any time now....
Oopsie. Well, there goes his argument that they support Russia n’Putin. One down, one to go...
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