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‘For Goodness Sake!’: Congressman Jim Jordan Breaks Down Major ‘Flaw’ In Argument Against Trump
The Daily Caller ^ | 06/13/2023 | BRIANNA LYMAN

Posted on 06/13/2023 9:21:24 AM PDT by SeekAndFind


SCREENSHOT: CNN

House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan broke down the major “flaw” in the indictment against former President Donald Trump Sunday on CNN with Dana Bash.

Trump announced the indictment Thursday, ahead of the official indictment being unsealed Friday. The charges against Trump include 31 counts of alleged violation of the Espionage Act or the willful retention of national security information, as well as one count of “conspiracy to obstruct justice,” one count of “withholding a document or record,” one count of corruptly concealing a documents or record,” one count of “concealing a documents in a deferral investigation,” one count of “scheme to conceal” and one count of “false statements and representations.”

Bash asked Jordan to comment on part of the indictment.

“The indictment said: ‘TRUMP directed NAUTA,’ who’s his personal aide, ‘to move boxes before Trump Attorney 1’s June 2 review, so that many boxes were not searched and many documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena could not be found and were in fact not found by Trump Attorney 1.’ [sic] In plain English, this alleges that Trump instructed his aide to help him remove sensitive documents in defiance of a federal subpoena. A), Does that trouble you? And B) If he thought he had the right to have these documents, why was he trying so hard to hide them?” Bash asked.

“No, it doesn’t bother me because again, you can’t have obstruction of something when there was no underlying crime. The standard is set. The standard is what the Constitution says. The commander-in-chief — the president of the United States — has the ability to classify and control access to information. That’s what the Constitution and the court have said. So you can’t obstruct when there is — you can’t obstruct when there is no underlying crime,” said Jordan.

“He is not the president of the United States — ”

“That is the fundamental flaw,” Jordan shot back.

“And you’re just taking him at his word?” Dana asked.

“And when he was president, he declassified the material. He’s been — he’s been very clear about that.”

“He says point-blank, on tape, ‘As president I could have declassified it. Now I can’t.’ He says, in his own words, it’s on tape as part of this indictment, that he did not declassify the material. Therefore, it is classified.”

“Dana … saying he could have, saying he could have is not the same as saying he didn’t,” Jordan pushed back.

“He said, ‘now I can’t’,” Bash said.

“Now he can’t — right — because he’s not president now. But when he was president, he did declassify it. He said that,” Jordan said.

“Which means that what he was holding was classified,” Bash argued.

“Not if he declassified it when he was president of the United States, for goodness sake!”

“But he’s saying point-blank in this audio tape that he did not declassify it,” Bash said. “What you’re saying just doesn’t make sense on its face.”

“Dana, what this truly is, Dana, is an affront to the rule of law. It’s an affront to consistent application of the law. You have Secretary Clinton — who had classified material on a server — she was not president of the United States. She was Secretary Clinton. You have that happen, nothing happens to her,” Jordan continued before the duo moved on to other issues.

Bash was referencing was a July 2021 call which alleged Trump showed a “plan of attack” to a writer, a publisher and two staffers, which he said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense, according to the indictment. “As president, I could have declassified it,” Trump allegedly said at the time, and “now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”


TOPICS: Breaking News; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aifakes; bidengate; indictment; jimjordan; nocasejack; plenarypower; presdjtrump; trump; trump2024
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To: CivilWarBrewing

That’s right. What everyone is forgetting is that there is no formal process for a POTUS declassifying a document - if he treats it or considers it as declassified, - even retroactively - it is declassified.

Consider this example: A neighbor walks into your tool shed while you are out, and takes one of your shovels. Another neighbor witnesses it and calls the police.

Was the shovel stolen? Only if you say it was. You can decide - at any time - even retroactively - that it was borrowed or gifted - not stolen. It’s totally up to you.

It is exactly the same for a POTUS regarding the designation of classified documents. He can - at any time - determine whether the documents were classified.


41 posted on 06/13/2023 10:19:53 AM PDT by enumerated ( )
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To: SeekAndFind

Not to sound too corny, but what makes this country different from countries with dictators in Africa or Stalin or Hitler or any of those countries with dictators and totalitarian leaders is when they took over, they put their opponents in jail. To hear one presidential candidate – even if it was a flip comment, which it was – say you’re going to be in jail to another president on the debate stage in the United States of America. Stunning. Just stunning. - Dana Bash, CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/10/politics/countries-that-jail-opposition-second-presidential-debate/index.html


42 posted on 06/13/2023 10:22:43 AM PDT by ifinnegan (Democrats kill babies and harvest their organs to sell)
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To: CA Conservative

A president doesn’t get cleared for accessing any classified information. He doesn’t have a security clearance per se, so there’s nothing to pull after a president leaves office. Biden said he was cutting off any security briefings that would normally be given to a former president.

I found this, but I make no claims to its accuracy, but this frames what I’m saying about security clearance re: presidents. https://fas.org/publication/clearances-presidential/

“I think it was included primarily to make it difficult for Trump to claim he didn’t know the documents he was sharing were classified, or claim that he had previously declassified them. It could also be to establish intent (knowingly sharing classified data) which is a necessary component of the Espionage Act charges as I understand it.”

Yes, this is the only reason that it’s included. It doesn’t even matter if he has any such document or if he was making everything up to make a point to the ghost writer who was recording. It just shows that he knows there is some barrier to his sharing secrets now that he was no longer president.


43 posted on 06/13/2023 10:28:37 AM PDT by CrazyCatChick (DEATH POKE!)
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To: SeekAndFind

From the leftist glee over it, seems that the supposed tape is all they have on him.

Garland must have peed his pants he was so excited when they got (or contrived) it.


44 posted on 06/13/2023 10:28:57 AM PDT by nicollo ("I said no!")
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To: teeman8r

RE: the president, by the act of taking the documents, declassified them.

I’m not familiar with the law on classified and declassified documents, but is what you said written down in law? Or are we simply assuming it?

I mean, if the very act of taking the documents mean they’re declassified, then that should be the opening argument of the defense. Heck, the judge in this case ought to simply dismiss it. But I’m not so sure about your statement, that’s why I ask.


45 posted on 06/13/2023 10:33:53 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: Yo-Yo

Or specifically

“When I was president, I had the authority to declassify the information. Now that I am no longer president, I do not have that authority”


46 posted on 06/13/2023 10:33:56 AM PDT by Old West Conservative
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To: SeekAndFind
Two additional problems:

I assume that the DOJ is STILL lying.

47 posted on 06/13/2023 10:34:23 AM PDT by Aevery_Freeman (My heroes have always been indicted!)
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To: SeekAndFind

Is Jordan an attorney?

I think all this is bullcrap at trump, but Jordan is wrong. You can obstruct justice with no underlying crime..absolutely.


48 posted on 06/13/2023 10:34:50 AM PDT by DrewsMum
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To: CrazyCatChick; CA Conservative

RE: I think it was included primarily to make it difficult for Trump to claim he didn’t know the documents he was sharing were classified, or claim that he had previously declassified them.

There are others on this particular thread who say that the very act of taking the documents out make them declassified by default. Is that true? Or is it false?

Also, how does a jury know whether or not a document has been declassified or is still classified?


49 posted on 06/13/2023 10:36:32 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: CA Conservative; P-Marlowe

***Several sources have told CNN the recording captures the sound of paper rustling, as if Trump was waving the document around, though is not clear if it was the actual Iran document.

“Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this,” Trump says at one point, according to the transcript. “This was done by the military and given to me.”***

He obviously was being sarcastic, if you accept CNN’s account here.

Note that it NOPLACE says he gave anyone the document(s) to read. It sounds like they’re saying he was waving a batch of papers in the air saying (sarcastically) ““Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this,””

But it no place says anyone actually received it and read it. In fact, it could have been a random stack of paper he had picked up while being dramatic.


50 posted on 06/13/2023 10:37:31 AM PDT by xzins (Retired US Army chaplain. Support our troops by praying for their victory. )
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To: CrazyCatChick

Thanks for the clarification on security clearances. I know elected officials are granted access to classified data based not on the clearance process, but on the mere fact that they were elected and have a need to access the data. I also know that all elected federal officials besides the president and vote are still restricted in what they can see by “need to know”. So your explanation makes sense.


51 posted on 06/13/2023 10:38:52 AM PDT by CA Conservative (Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, I am free at last!)
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To: DrewsMum

RE: You can obstruct justice with no underlying crime..absolutely.

I’m not following. if there is no underlying crime or possible crime, exactly what is the DOJ after when they raided Mar-a-Lago?

Why spend so much resources on something that isn’t a crime?


52 posted on 06/13/2023 10:38:58 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: ConservativeInPA
The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

Not sure of what you're saying.

53 posted on 06/13/2023 10:39:49 AM PDT by econjack
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To: xzins

Well, Trump can try to make that argument, but I don’t think it will be successful.


54 posted on 06/13/2023 10:40:54 AM PDT by CA Conservative (Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, I am free at last!)
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To: CA Conservative
That document can be declassified and President Trump still feels like the information shouldn't be public, I think that is what he was saying.

"It's declassified but I'm going to keep it secret." I'm not going to show you and will hold it till it may come in handy in defending me from false accusations.

55 posted on 06/13/2023 10:45:13 AM PDT by Flint
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To: CA Conservative
Supposedly they don’t even have this document. The indictment version of what he says doesn’t match the leaked CNN transcript version which is less clear. They are all laughing about what he says.

One question is whether Mark Milley leaked classified information to the press or book writers claiming he stopped Trump from invading Iran. The document was allegedly the plan Milley presented to Trump on invading Iran. If this is audio, not video, we don’t know if Trump allowed it to be read or just “showed it” as a prop.

They are saying Trump was carelessly storing these documents while not charging him that way to avoid cases against Biden, Pence and the rest. They are saying the infamous bragger Trump should be taken literally that he didn’t declassify rather than him gaslighting those present for narrative effect.

If he caused the documents to go to Mar-a-lago while president the issue of him not being president is mooted. That means he still had the absolute and unreviewable authority to declassify documents going with him as records of his presidency.

56 posted on 06/13/2023 10:47:48 AM PDT by newzjunkey (We need a better Trump than Trump in 2024)
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To: newzjunkey

At this point, I say, bring on the trial, let’s get this over with.


57 posted on 06/13/2023 10:48:43 AM PDT by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: CA Conservative

Also, Wikipedia re: PRA. If there’s anything wrong there, please let me know - it’s in the common vernacular, so it’s easier for me to read and understand. I don’t know anything about this so I’d like some discussion.

It looks like #6 might be a problem for President Trump. Also, #10 makes being able to be president while in prison something of a problem/contradiction.

“Specifically, the Presidential Records Act:

1.Defines and states public ownership of the records.

2. Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent presidential records with the President.

3. Allows the incumbent president to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once he or she has obtained the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal in writing. [7]

4. Establishes a process for restriction and public access to these records. Specifically, the PRA allows for public access to presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years. The PRA also establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent administrations to obtain special access to records that remain closed to the public, following a 30‑day notice period to the former and current Presidents.

5.Requires that Vice-Presidential records are to be treated in the same way as presidential records.

6. Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office. [7]

7. Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489

8. Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts: any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account. (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)

9. Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.

10. Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.”


58 posted on 06/13/2023 10:49:09 AM PDT by CrazyCatChick (DEATH POKE!)
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To: DrewsMum

RE: Is Jordan an attorney?

Well, he graduated from law school, but in his own words, never took the bar exams. Jordan was elected to the Ohio House of Representatives not very long after graduation.


59 posted on 06/13/2023 10:49:29 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: xzins

RE: “Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this,” Trump says at one point, according to the transcript. “This was done by the military and given to me.”***

Very similar to the document regarding January 6 that he waved in front of CNN’s KAITLAN COLLINS and the audience in his Townhall.


60 posted on 06/13/2023 10:51:40 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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