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To: BroJoeK

I don’t see this as simple as Russia bad, west good. Also don’t see Vlad as out of step from most other Russian leaders through history. He warned about western meddling in Ukraine since 2007, maidan revolution of 2014 (western NGO funded, Nuland tapes), Minsk agreement failures, Donbas shelling. From a Russian perspective, I think you can make the case that Vlad waited too long. I believe Merkel even said Minsk was just to buy time for NATO to arm up Ukraine. Russia gets uppity about that region. Famously invaded twice through there. I believe western leaders wanted this conflict, don’t remember any efforts to try to make a peace and save young innocent lives. My opinion anyway.


66 posted on 04/21/2023 11:05:23 AM PDT by teevolt
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To: teevolt
From a Russian perspective, I think you can make the case that Vlad waited too long.

The Russians needed time to make their economy sanctions-proof, and they succeeded.

67 posted on 04/21/2023 11:59:49 AM PDT by kiryandil (China Joe and Paycheck Hunter - the Chink in America's defenses)
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To: teevolt
teevolt: "I don’t see this as simple as Russia bad, west good. "

Except that there is nothing good, decent or lawful in Vlad the Invader's Ukrainian adventure, and nothing wrong with Ukraine defending itself, with the west's help.

teevolt: "Also don’t see Vlad as out of step from most other Russian leaders through history."

Exactly right, Vlad the Invader is an old-fashioned Russian Empire builder, a throwback to, say, 1914.
He is totally immoral, or amoral, and wants to expand Russia through conquest of his weaker neighbors.

Destroying such empire builders was the whole purpose of the First & Second World Wars and now you want us to do that all over again?

No thanks, it's far better to stop those people while, metaphorically, Hitler is still weak but marching into the Rhineland (1936), than wait until he grows unstoppable in Poland (1939) by anything short of a World War.

teevolt: "He warned about western meddling in Ukraine since 2007, maidan revolution of 2014 (western NGO funded, Nuland tapes), Minsk agreement failures, Donbas shelling. "

You probably forgot, didn't you, that Russia, Ukraine and all the other Eastern European countries were on a path to NATO membership from 1994 onwards.
As late as the early 2000s Vlad himself discussed NATO membership with our Pres. Slick Willie, who supported it, and others from Europe.
So Russia and NATO/Europe remained on very friendly terms until... until... did you forget when?
It was until 2008, when Vlad Invaded his small neighbor, Georgia.
Then countries like Ukraine continued to seek NATO membership, while Vlad the Invader grew hostile to NATO.

But Vlad's hostility in no way deprived Ukraine or anybody else of their rights as sovereign countries to seek alliances wherever they chose.

teevolt: "From a Russian perspective, I think you can make the case that Vlad waited too long.
I believe Merkel even said Minsk was just to buy time for NATO to arm up Ukraine.
Russia gets uppity about that region.
Famously invaded twice through there. "

Then Russians are insane and must be defeated.
Vlad the Invader could 100% guarantee Russia's security by simply joining NATO as Russia intended to do from 1994 onwards.
But Vlad chose the path of hostility and now must suffer the consequences.

teevolt: "I believe western leaders wanted this conflict, don’t remember any efforts to try to make a peace and save young innocent lives.
My opinion anyway."

That's insane -- war was Vlad's choice and nobody else's.
Nobody wanted war except Vlad the Invader.
What everybody wanted was for Ukraine to be a sovereign, independent nation, not subject to dictates from Russia or anybody else.


73 posted on 04/23/2023 6:20:51 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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