NATO Agrees Ukraine Will Become a Member

Newsweek ^ | April 21, 2023 | Isabel van Brugen

[Leaning Right]

Awhile back I commented here on Free Republic that NATO was purely a defensive organization. Then someone came along and corrected me. He pointed out that NATO went on the offensive in Serbia (1999) and in Libya (2011). Just as you mentioned.

Those two events sent out waves. They gave Russia reason to believe that NATO wasn’t purely defensive after all, and could be used for other purposes.

[BroJoeK]

canuck_conservative: "lousy Russian army has been trying to get the town of Bahkmut for 8+ months, and they STILL don't have it!!"

Sirius Lee: "I was assured by panicked neocons that pooter was going to completely overrun Europe."

In February, 2022, Vlad the Invader intended to overrun Ukraine in a matter of days and virtually everybody back then thought he could do it.
Sleepy Joe even sent Zelenskyy an airplane to escape Kiev in.

Turns out, Russians were not as good, nor Ukrainians as bad, as everyone thought.
What comes next is anybody's guess, but there's no reason to think Vlad the Invader wants any less of Ukraine today than he did in February of 2022.

[null and void]

I would have loved to take that class with that professor!

[BroJoeK]

teevolt: "Understand the propaganda pamplet says NATO is defensive, but I disagree.
For instance, there was nothing defensive about NATO bombing Serbia in 1999, or NATO bombing Lybia in 2011."

In both cases NATO believed it was defending innocents against atrocities from brutal groups & dictators.
Nor did NATO attempt to conquer Serbia or Libya, they remain independent.

teevolt: "U.S. should declare mission accomplished and leave NATO."

Vlad the Invader's actions in Ukraine and threats against many other countries manifestly prove that NATO's mission to defend Europe is very far from accomplished.

[null and void]

there's no reason to think Vlad the Invader wants any less of Ukraine today than he did in February of 2022.

It's good to want.

Even if it's impossible to get...

[teevolt]

I don’t see this as simple as Russia bad, west good. Also don’t see Vlad as out of step from most other Russian leaders through history. He warned about western meddling in Ukraine since 2007, maidan revolution of 2014 (western NGO funded, Nuland tapes), Minsk agreement failures, Donbas shelling. From a Russian perspective, I think you can make the case that Vlad waited too long. I believe Merkel even said Minsk was just to buy time for NATO to arm up Ukraine. Russia gets uppity about that region. Famously invaded twice through there. I believe western leaders wanted this conflict, don’t remember any efforts to try to make a peace and save young innocent lives. My opinion anyway.

[kiryandil]

From a Russian perspective, I think you can make the case that Vlad waited too long.

The Russians needed time to make their economy sanctions-proof, and they succeeded.

[John S Mosby]

RIIIIGHT- the “North Atlantic TREATY Organization” has to have a TREATY approved afa the US involved— by the US Senate.

This has NOTHING to do with NATO as a “defensive” organization for which it was created. It is a completely morphed association of proxy defense which members DO NOT pay their way per the treaty in the first place. After the Soviet Union fell (and, it did, despite neo-cons who cannot and have not dealt with this fact since then and still think it is the 1950’s Berlin)- NATO flailed around to find a reason to exist, and it SHOULD have focused then on Mao and his following ‘leaders’ because the ChiComs will never give up on Communist Totalitarianism.

So they own Milley, they own JoeBama et cie (all of them and Obamaumao the first— all the embed muslim Marxists who think they are fighting the Soviets still. Like Hitlery, calling Trump a Russian agent— filthy corruptocrats who all..ALL work for the ChiCom Belt and Road.). If we removed our money from the ChiComs they’d fold in a month. But no, we continue the idiotic expenditure of needed capital and borrowed Fed Reserve “money” to destroy our own military, and provide the weakness the ChiComs need to destroy the SEATO nations. The Ukraine farce continues on our nickel.

Would not listen to the GDR osties who run the EU and their NATO clown. Neither the Poles nor Hungary trust them- and Ukraine whats left of it shouldn’t either. What a set up.

[BroJoeK]

Codeflier: "I am glad you said all of this...it shows me you understand how I see people like you...crazy."

I think you need to figure out what's driving your irrational hatreds of everything good & decent, then go to work on fixing that.

[Codeflier]

You’re 180 degrees out of phase. There is nothing good and decent about the kleptocratic government of Ukraine. Until we can agree on the starting premise of an issue, there isn’t much room for alignment.

[BroJoeK]

BJK post #62: "here's no reason to think Vlad the Invader wants any less of Ukraine today than he did in February of 2022."

null and void: "It's good to want.
Even if it's impossible to get..."

It's totally irrational and illegal.
The old Soviets recognized Crimea as part of Ukraine in 1954, then Russia recognized Ukraine with Crimea in 1991, 1994, 1997 and again in 2003.

So Vlad the Invader is 100% in the wrong, nothing "good" about him, and Ukrainians have every right to defend themselves and ask for our help.

[null and void]

Good to want was a more general comment, not specifically in Vlad’s case.

You are correct in calling me out. Snap comments need some reflection before stating.

Good catch, thanks.

[BroJoeK]

teevolt: "I don’t see this as simple as Russia bad, west good. "

Except that there is nothing good, decent or lawful in Vlad the Invader's Ukrainian adventure, and nothing wrong with Ukraine defending itself, with the west's help.

teevolt: "Also don’t see Vlad as out of step from most other Russian leaders through history."

Exactly right, Vlad the Invader is an old-fashioned Russian Empire builder, a throwback to, say, 1914.
He is totally immoral, or amoral, and wants to expand Russia through conquest of his weaker neighbors.

Destroying such empire builders was the whole purpose of the First & Second World Wars and now you want us to do that all over again?

No thanks, it's far better to stop those people while, metaphorically, Hitler is still weak but marching into the Rhineland (1936), than wait until he grows unstoppable in Poland (1939) by anything short of a World War.

teevolt: "He warned about western meddling in Ukraine since 2007, maidan revolution of 2014 (western NGO funded, Nuland tapes), Minsk agreement failures, Donbas shelling. "

You probably forgot, didn't you, that Russia, Ukraine and all the other Eastern European countries were on a path to NATO membership from 1994 onwards.
As late as the early 2000s Vlad himself discussed NATO membership with our Pres. Slick Willie, who supported it, and others from Europe.
So Russia and NATO/Europe remained on very friendly terms until... until... did you forget when?
It was until 2008, when Vlad Invaded his small neighbor, Georgia.
Then countries like Ukraine continued to seek NATO membership, while Vlad the Invader grew hostile to NATO.

But Vlad's hostility in no way deprived Ukraine or anybody else of their rights as sovereign countries to seek alliances wherever they chose.

teevolt: "From a Russian perspective, I think you can make the case that Vlad waited too long.
I believe Merkel even said Minsk was just to buy time for NATO to arm up Ukraine.
Russia gets uppity about that region.
Famously invaded twice through there. "

Then Russians are insane and must be defeated.
Vlad the Invader could 100% guarantee Russia's security by simply joining NATO as Russia intended to do from 1994 onwards.
But Vlad chose the path of hostility and now must suffer the consequences.

teevolt: "I believe western leaders wanted this conflict, don’t remember any efforts to try to make a peace and save young innocent lives.
My opinion anyway."

That's insane -- war was Vlad's choice and nobody else's.
Nobody wanted war except Vlad the Invader.
What everybody wanted was for Ukraine to be a sovereign, independent nation, not subject to dictates from Russia or anybody else.

[BroJoeK]

kiryandil: "The Russians needed time to make their economy sanctions-proof, and they succeeded."

Only if you believe Russian propaganda.
But Russia arresting that Wall Street Journal reporter, for writing factually about Russians suffering, suggests they are not as "sanctions-proof" as they wish us to believe.

[BroJoeK]

Codeflier: "You’re 180 degrees out of phase.
There is nothing good and decent about the kleptocratic government of Ukraine.
Until we can agree on the starting premise of an issue, there isn’t much room for alignment."

Speaking of measurable corruption, on a scale of one to ten, where Vlad's Russia is the most corrupt, at 10, and some European countries are the least corrupt at one, then Ukraine is around a five.

But that is 100% irrelevant, because Vlad invaded Ukraine and that makes Vlad the Invader 100% wrong and gives Ukraine 100% moral authority to defend itself and ask for NATO's help.

If none of that computes inside your brain, then you've got something wrong going on in there, and you need to fix it, FRiend.

[rlmorel]

Thanks for that post-after reading it, I decided to read “The Guns of August” again, and just started this morning.