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How Ford and VW’s multibillion-dollar self-driving car project failed
CNBC ^ | March 22, 2023 | by Robert Ferris

Posted on 03/22/2023 5:23:03 AM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer

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To: Oldeconomybuyer

Do trains first, then we’ll talk.


21 posted on 03/22/2023 6:01:59 AM PDT by VTenigma (Conspiracy theory is the new "spoiler alert")
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To: fuzzylogic; grobdriver
Fellow code jokey here. Our new car has self-driving features (they call it "driving assist" with the word "assist" meaning we're just helping you if we see you drift out of the lane, but don't depend on us and sue us). I played with it on quiet roads and disabled it the first day. If I veered some onto the center lane to avoid someone checking her mailbox, it tried to "help" me put it back in the center of the lane (too close to the pedestrian). Same with if I veered the other direction to avoid a large truck that veered into the center (for a sharp curve). Either the software is buggy or it's unreasonable to expect the design to account for so many variables.

I would imagine autopiloting a plane doesn't have to account for so much other random traffic.

22 posted on 03/22/2023 6:07:00 AM PDT by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: redfreedom
They could take out every major building in DC from Peking.

Pronises, promises....

23 posted on 03/22/2023 6:09:37 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: moovova
Just sell the car and take uber, right?

A not very long Uber ride a day is $7,000 per year. That will more than pay for a car.

24 posted on 03/22/2023 6:13:39 AM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: momincombatboots
Wealthy people like Donald Trump avoid driving for two good reasons:

1. Their time is valuable, and there is almost always something more important for them to be doing than driving a car.

2. Having a driver and a car owned by a company that is a separate corporate entity than the person getting driven around helps avoid personal liability in civil court in the event of a crash.

25 posted on 03/22/2023 6:29:47 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've just pissed in my pants and nobody can do anything about it." -- Major Fambrough)
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To: Tell It Right

You are correct - flying a plane is, maybe unintuitively, much easier. You don’t have anywhere near the use-cases to handle.

That said, many of these systems aren’t equal. There are no current standards to define how “well” an ADAS feature must perform. Lane Keep Assist capabilities will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Consider false positives, the LAST thing you want to happen is for these systems to kick in when they shouldn’t. So, by definition, they will have a threshold where, in some instances, they won’t kick in when you’d want them to. They’re just “assist”.

As vehicles get more capabilities around understanding their environment, along with them being better integrated together, their effectiveness will only improve.

At this time, I agree, I wouldn’t get lazy with my driving and assume the Lane Keep Assist (or any other ADAS feature) will save me all the time. This is the mistake a number of Tesla drivers have made and have paid the price for doing so.


26 posted on 03/22/2023 6:30:49 AM PDT by fuzzylogic (welfare state = sharing of poor moral choices among everybody)
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To: Tell It Right

Also, the use-cases you cite are on point. They may not be designed to handle them, I’d turn them off for everything other than freeway use. One system may try to accommodate for things like pedestrians or oncoming traffic, another may only be looking at the road and try to dictate being in the middle of a lane. ...again, no standards.


27 posted on 03/22/2023 6:35:27 AM PDT by fuzzylogic (welfare state = sharing of poor moral choices among everybody)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
You really got to the heart of the problem here. I've been saying this for years:

Self-driving cars are a solution in search of a problem.

I work in an industry where our clients deal with this sort of thing all the time. We are STEM professionals, and my industry is now being dominated by tech-savvy geeks who are almost pathological about pursuing technological advances for no other reason than to just do it. I knew self-driving cars didn't have a bright future when surveys showed that even people in MY industry don't find them all that appealing.

28 posted on 03/22/2023 6:39:12 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've just pissed in my pants and nobody can do anything about it." -- Major Fambrough)
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To: Oldeconomybuyer

A bad idea is just that, profit poison.
Wake up.


29 posted on 03/22/2023 6:43:20 AM PDT by gathersnomoss (LIVE FREE OR DIE)
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To: fuzzylogic
I’ll point out that 99% of the time airplanes are flying themselves

Connected to TCAS, separated by a thousand feet and miles by design and flight plan, and listening to enroute controllers. "The crowded skies" aren't.

I've been flying for longer than I was working, and I know first hand that the only place it gets crowded up there is in class "B" airspace, and around airports - where autopilots are disengaged.

Glad to hear, though, that automotive companies are taking the danger of their autonomous activities to heart and increasing the rigor through which software is certified - but that reassures me not at all.

30 posted on 03/22/2023 6:45:05 AM PDT by grobdriver (The CDC can KMA!)
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To: fuzzylogic
While I hear, very loudly, what you’re saying I’ll point out that 99% of the time airplanes are flying themselves.

Great point. I'd offer two observations related to this:

1. Airplane manufacturing is probably one of the most heavily subsidized industries in the world. Much of the R&D in the industry is done under military contracts, so the industry does not have to pass the costs of these things along the way the auto industry does.

2. When it comes to technology development, one of the biggest limitations of the auto industry is that there are very different economies of scale when it comes to building costs into the price of the product that is sold to the customer. Incorporating technology in a car that is: (A) rarely used for more than several hours in a typical day, and (B) is driven by a single occupant most of the time it is being used, tends to be very costly to the end user -- especially in comparison to aircraft that carry hundreds of passengers and is kept in service for as many hours as possible.

31 posted on 03/22/2023 6:48:39 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("I've just pissed in my pants and nobody can do anything about it." -- Major Fambrough)
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To: Tell It Right

I have a couple of Subaru Outback’s (love them) that have the lane assist. Normally I like it, but is sure can be picky about what it sees as the Middle of the lane, and the beeping gets annoying on very windy roads.

Also, when there’s snow I will always turn it off. That’s not because it can’t see the lane lines, as it will not try to “assist” if it cannot see the edges of the lane and there are are indicators that let you know if it can or not.

The problem I that snow on the road can make patterns that appear to be lane edges, and they can shift across the road randomly.

One time I had the car jerk the wheel to the side trying to keep in the “lane”, and that is obviously not optimal is snowy slippery roads. So it always get turned off when there’s snow on the road.

This is one of the reason I just don’t see self driving cars as inevitable. Just too many situations like that where a computer will make the wrong decision. I’m just not convinced that we can program a computer to recognize false or misleading information, that we humans know instinctively.

So perhaps I’ll be proven wrong, but I’m just not convinced that it can be done consistently and reliability for anything other than predicable roads and conditions.


32 posted on 03/22/2023 6:51:13 AM PDT by Jotmo (Whoever said, "The pen is mightier than the sword." has clearly never been stabbed to death.)
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To: fuzzylogic

Ever notice how there are far fewer pedestrians, or dogs and children running in front of your vehicle, or stop signs, stop lights, and railroad crossings, up in the air as compared to on the road?

Yes, flying has its own unique challenges, and I do not pretend to be able to list all the known factors; and many of them have to do with local weather patterns and the effects on flight, as well as monitoring the physical responses of the plane’s control surfaces, shutting down hot engines, icing, etc., which aren’t as applicable to cars (”Captain! The steering wheel isn’t responding!”)

But from a layperson’s perspective, it looks like a lot of the airplane constraints, revolve around things which were designed by people as part of the plane, and can therefore be quantified within some error bounds, as opposed to the arbitrary and hard-to-identify-and-differentiate-instantly, interruptions (”bouncing ball in the road implies little kid to follow”), which drivers on the road have to deal with.


33 posted on 03/22/2023 6:58:18 AM PDT by grey_whiskers ( The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: fuzzylogic
Maybe my freeway experience is different. But I turned off the lane assist for that too. It'd bleep at me if I'd veer a little to avoid bumps in the road (unless I turned on my turn signal) or if a stalled car was in the median.

The adaptive cruise control works fine for most cases, though. The same with the range estimator (it's an EV) as long as my driving habits haven't changed. When I go on a trip, though, it takes about 200 miles or so before it figures out that 80 mph driving (read: lower range) is the new normal. After the first 200 or so miles the range estimate is pretty accurate. The same for when I'm done with the trip and resume local driving (the range estimate assumes a low range until it has time to realize that 55 mph is the norm with only a few miles here and there of 75 mph).

34 posted on 03/22/2023 7:06:23 AM PDT by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: 9YearLurker

1) you will not own your car, but you’ll be happy

2) you will not steer your car, but you’ll be happy

3) you will not charge your car, your social credit score is low this period, improve behavior then you be happy again, comrade.

4) you will not live in suburbs or countryside, but you will be assigned a unit in new dense-society-smart-urban-cool-city and you’ll be ecstatic about life. If not, submit complaint to the People’s Social Credit Court.


35 posted on 03/22/2023 7:22:18 AM PDT by epluribus_2
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To: BobL

Those bikes and scooters all over town were quite fun at first. Then Covid came and they all disappeared. Apparently riding public bikes spreads disease. Now they are being ridden by homeless people who overpower the locking systems. Then they tear the batteries out to power their tent houses. I saw a homeless guy riding a scooter with two other scooters on it with him heading towards the levee. I am reminded of the biblical caution about casting your pearls before swine.


36 posted on 03/22/2023 7:27:27 AM PDT by webheart
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To: epluribus_2

No doubt, that’s the vision that they are dead serious about.


37 posted on 03/22/2023 7:31:29 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Jotmo
Lane assist is a bit helpful on interstate highways. The catch is to signal before changing lanes, which disables the feature.

On long distance driving, I appreciate the warnings feature when there's a car next to you, with an increased warning when the turn indicator is on.

38 posted on 03/22/2023 7:45:57 AM PDT by The Truth Will Make You Free (o )
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To: 9YearLurker

Self driving Winnebago
https://www.rvtravel.com/man-puts-rv-on-cruise-control%2C-walks-back-to-make-coffee/
You can’t fix stupid.


39 posted on 03/22/2023 7:46:14 AM PDT by TStro (Better to die on your feet than live on your knees)
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To: Alberta's Child

I agree that for the vast majority of folks self-driving cars are not needed.

However, the baby boomers are gonna keep getting older and we are eventually going to be menaces on the road.

At some point it will be safer to have a self-driving car than a ninety five year old geezer at the while.


40 posted on 03/22/2023 7:50:04 AM PDT by cgbg (Claiming that laws and regs that limit “hate speech” stop freedom of speech is “hate speech”.)
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