September 30, 2022
Maybe it got lost in the mail.
Posted on 03/04/2023 12:56:23 PM PST by Golden Eagle
Finland’s parliament has decided the country will proceed with plans for joining NATO alone, dropping the government’s previous stance to join “hand in hand” with Sweden.
On Wednesday, March 1st, Finnish MPs voted overwhelmingly to approve the NATO treaties and accession in parliament, with 184 MPs in favour and only 7 against. This ratification of the treaties now places Finland one step ahead of Sweden, and it needs only now to wait for ratification by Hungary and Turkey.
While not totally unexpected, fears remain over Finland’s vulnerability against Russia if it joins NATO on its own. “In case of a conflict with Russia … NATO would need Swedish territory to help Finland defend itself” Reuters reported when the motion was first discussed in Helsinki in early February. A former prime minister of Finland, Paavo Lipponen, echoed this position when he said in an opinion piece that “without Sweden, Finland would end up in a vulnerable situation.”
Debates in Finland over whether the country should join alone began as Sweden’s bid stalled due to Turkish opposition. President Erdoğan’s demand that Sweden ban Quran burnings will likely contravene Sweden’s constitutional right to freedom of speech, thus leaving Stockholm’s accession bid deadlocked for the time being. Since Turkey signalled it would have no problem ratifying Finland’s application to join the alliance, this put Finland’s solidarity with Sweden into serious question.
Finland has many incentives to join NATO. It shares a 1,300-kilometre border with Russia and has been invaded by them many times before. According to a poll by the news outlet Ilta-Sanomat, 53% of Finns support joining NATO without Sweden. More urgently this was parliament’s last chance to ratify the alliance treaties before going into recess on March 3rd, pending elections on April 2nd.
NATO’s Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, says he aims to have both of the Nordic neighbours in the alliance in time for its July summit.
Having been the guy who had to make a team reach consensus on several occasions, I can attest to how difficult it is. Even if the question for thirty people was, “Who wants to risk dying tomorrow?” you might have trouble getting a hundred percent vote to not risk dying tomorrow.
Turkey is committing economic suicide. It is an entirely self-inflicted wound. It’s totally unnecessary. So, we’d expect a rational decision from them regarding NATO? Also, Russia could throw some money around to the right people and make them vote however they want. Frankly, I’ll be astonished if even Finland gets into NATO. If they do its most likely because the CIA has managed to neutralize Russia’s interference by twisting the other arm of whoever Russia buys off.
Not a mention of Ukraine. Good.
Finland is voting to join NATO, but Hungary is joining Turkey as an obstacle
March 1, 2023
until you brought it up
Finland has a history with Russia that would be hard to forget.
Don't be coy! What exactly do you mean? What team? Your chess team? What circumstances? Be a little bit more specific!
Regards,
Maybe it got lost in the mail.
Apparently their 600+ year history of being invaded and occupied by Sweden is easier to get over.
I was the corporate trainer and team leader/trainer for what was at the time the American subsidiary of Israel’s equivalent of GE which is now part of Elbit. Let’s say you wanted to redefine how the product moved and you must reach consensus to do it. Someone will think, gosh, they’ll eliminate my job and no matter what, they won’t agree to anything.
But the point was that when you have more than a handful of people and all of them must agree, as is the case with another country joining NATO, it isn’t likely to happen. My rule of thumb was that if you had more than about twenty people, then reaching a consensus on anything was unlikely. The reasons that those people don’t want to agree often have nothing to do with what you’re trying to accomplish. Some are just people who find power in saying no. Some are just argumentative or want to “win.” NATO has 30 members. Hungary and Turkey are wild cards. It’s possible that the US can twist their arms behind the scenes, but I’d be amazed if either Finland or Sweden gets admitted.
I suspect that Erdoğan is holding out to get the F35, which was denied to Turkey because they bought the Russian S-400 air defense system. This would allow Russian technicians to figure out how to track the F35 and greatly reduce its utility. He probably also wants a huge no interest loan and probably a few other goodies. I think there are other countries that can be bribed or intimidated to vote no by Russia.
Incidentally, one trick I found that worked was arranging the teams so that problematic people were on very small teams. Can’t do that with NATO.
It was easier to get over.
Partly because Finland had no ethnic or national consciousness at the time. The Finns were scattered tribes inhabiting a wilderness when the Swedes showed up and founded a few towns.
All modern nationalisms were born at about the same time, in the early 19th century, in France and Germany, with the “Romantic” movement. The idea of ethnic nationalism was a meme that spread like wildfire.
This was the seed for a vast number of ideologies, movements, and ultimately nation-states. Even Russian nationalism comes from the same seed. Arguably, so did socialism and communism.
The dancing queen, Sanna Marin, is a fool to make her country and security threat to Russia.
Hmmm...learn something every day. Thanks.
Note:
This is a typical Russian response, which you model so well. No regret, or offer to prevent this via friendly overtures. Just a threat.
That is one of the issues with Russian behavior, which shows up in all sorts of ways, not least in foreign policy.
Well if Finland helped blow up that pipeline they’re gonna need the protection, Maybe that’s why they’re so hot to trot to join NATO
We promised the Russians no eastward expansion of NATO after the Soviet Union collapsed. We lied. Even Biden knew the Russians would be threatened by NATO expansion in the 1990s and warned against it.
If China or Russia were doing what we have done in Ukraine of the past eight years (fomenting illegal coups, arming Ukraine, training soldiers, cutting off a naval base that has been part of the country for 200 years), WE INVADE AND JUSTIFIABLY SO.
It's neocon freaks like have us closer to a hot war with Russia, WWIII and nuclear war than we were during the Cold War.
The eastward expansion of NATO was driven by the ex-Soviet states. Because they did not trust Russia. And even then for twenty years no NATO forces were deployed in these states, in spite of constant pleading from the Eastern Euros. And NATO went moribund, with every country therein cutting their forces into near inutility.
And Finland and Sweden, non-NATO, were also constantly threatened.
This is not “commonsense”. This is reflexive, programmed hostility.
No, ultimately this all comes down to the collective Russian character.
European countries haven’t f***** with each other for the last 80 years. That’s quite a change. That’s part of the achievements of the Pax Americana.
Take some credit.
Also, take into account the changes in the world. We are not existing in the conditions of the year 1023 AD.
30 of the 32 NATO countries have already accepted Finland and Sweden. That article you link to states that Finland is “in” unless Hungary dissents, as Turkey has dropped its opposition to Finland. So, it’s really down to Hungary, as the bruthas say. Orban is going to get leaned on big time.
Stoltenberg has already said NATO countries would come to Finland and Sweden’s defense if Finland and Sweden were attacked. If Hungary doesn’t, it hardly matters. If big manpower was needed, Turkey would be quite helpful, but, it’s a long way away. Besides, an attack on Sweden and not Finland makes little sense, as the two countries are very closely allied anyway.
Even if Turkey or Hungary blocks Sweden, once Finland is in, individual NATO countries could still sign defense pacts with Sweden. For all practical purposes Sweden would be a NATO member, and Erdogan and Orban would just be posturing.
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