Posted on 01/21/2023 9:34:21 PM PST by Nextrush
This was the moment at which we began the unstoppable descent into terrible danger which so many of us will bitterly regret in times to come.
I won't waste time here going over the question of who started the Ukraine war, or even why. Most people don't want to know and refuse to think about it, or look up the facts. They defame and abuse anyone who tries to tell them. So to hell with that. I'm bored with trying.
The Government claims to be in favour of free debate in universities, so all the stage army of "Right-wing" thinkers and scribblers whoop with admiration that we can now perhaps discuss the transgender issue. Well and good.
But the Government and its tame thinkers are not in favour of free debate on crucial national policy...
When the Defence Secretary announced that British tanks were going to Ukraine, not one MP raised any doubts or opposed the move. Not one. To read the record of the non-debate is like reading the proceedings of some Communist fake parliament...
What we have just decided to do is to prolong and deepen the war. Maybe Ukraine's new tanks will sweep all before them. Maybe they will bog down. Maybe they will try to take Crimea. Maybe they will soon be taking part in a Victory Parade on Red Square. I don't know. But if they cross into what Russia regards at its own territory, then do not be surprised by anything which happens...
But why is Britain in this affair? I know that a lot of voters in key states in America hate Russia because their forebearers came from lands Moscow had oppressed. I know that some neo-conservative fanatics in Washington have long desired to dismantle Russia and ensure that is never an important...
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
This assertion is simply false. Russia lived with an independent Ukraine for 21 years before it started wars of territorial aggression. The only thing threatened by an independent Ukraine are inflated Russian egos.
That is your subjective opinion. The encroachment of NATO attempting to push right up to the Russian border is what started this existential threat to Russia. Especially when our American politicians made it clear they were a threat. You have seen the evidence multiple times but refuse to consider it because of your bias and hatred of all things Russian.
Why don't you allow Russia to determine what they feel is a threat?
When I was a kid and my brother started building a fallout shelter, we sure felt that Russian missiles in Cuba was a threat. They were 90 miles away from us. I cannot imagine what a threat is it to Russia to think that NATO could be right on their border. You warmongers are insane.
Not in Ukraine. The Maidan protestors were unarmed. It was Russia sending arms and money to Ukraine, first to keep Yanukovych in power and then into Crimea and Donbas.
As we know from the long sad story stretching from the Kuomintang to Afghanistan, American money and weapons don't do much if the side we are aiding doesn't have much popular support. It was the Ukrainians who threw out Yanukovych and who are fighting now to keep their independence.
Like the Russians, your side of the argument presupposes that the Ukrainians have no agency, and that Russia is "really" fighting NATO or the US. The Russian ego can't fathom being stymied by the contemptible xoxols.
Because, following the fundamental presupposition of MAD, I assume there's a basic rationality to Russian actions. That basic rationality means the Russians observed how the NATO accession of former Warsaw Pact members was dragged out and was not followed by moving any permanent US bases east of the former West Germany and that all NATO members substantially scaled back their militaries starting in the late 90s. Ergo, no rational agent would assume NATO is prepared for (let alone actually preparing) to attack Russia.
In fact, the hesitancy in accession and the serious drawdown of military forces probably encouraged Russian aggression in Europe, not to mention the nearly non-existent responses to Russian aggression in 2008 - 2014.
... we sure felt that Russian missiles in Cuba was a threat.
Get back to me when we install nukes in Ukraine. The fact is that Russia violated the INF treaty by moving Iskanders into Kaliningrad and the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty by building up its armored forces in Western Russia.
You have constructed a mythological world where Russia is the victim and the West is the aggressor.
Well, my comment was not so much meant as advice I would offer (I would not suggest this) but an attempt to read the mind of NATO commanders. I don’t think I made that very clear in my comment. It’s more like I’m saying, if NATO is okay with the risks they have already taken then might they not roll the dice and try even more force to make Putin realize he cannot win. If we define a win for Russia as Ukraine not joining NATO, then what if anything ends this “special operation?”
There is no situation in which my advice would be sought or heeded, but I would advise standing aside and putting pressure on Zelensky to sign a peace treaty that included a guarantee not to seek NATO membership. If Russia turned that down I suppose it would indicate they don’t trust Zelensky to keep that promise, or Ukraine to be bound by it post-Zelensky.
Really though, the attitude of some around here is that NATO somehow enforces the “globohomo” agenda and Russia does not want that enforced on them. Even if true, Ukraine membership in NATO would not substantially change the situation for Russia. If as a society and government they don’t want to participate in the woke socialist experiment, then who is going to force it on them, no matter what’s going on in Ukraine? Personally I don’t quite see it that way. I think NATO is just doing what woke socialist members tell it to do, and if we could get rid of woke socialism from various countries’ governments, then NATO would not be some reservoir of woke socialism.
I see the main problem as the weakness of Biden and other key leaders in the NATO alliance. There is nobody to talk sense to third parties and everybody knows that our societies are being run from the WEF complex. Maybe Putin and Schwab should have a summit.
Would you care to explain the gobbledygook you typed? It made no sense at all.
If your intent was to accuse me of opposing the Democrats here at home, therefore supporting a foreign country who opposes the Democrats overseas, then you're d__m straight.
I thought that is what were discussing from the start. Anything that Biden and his ilk, along with the WEF and Klaus Schwab are for, I'm against. And that would include you too.
That's essentially my point: you support something simply to oppose your domestic political opponents, even if it means supporting a foreign enemy.
NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organization
https://www.britannica.com/topic/North-Atlantic-Treaty-Organization
Big push east after 1990
I win
You lose
Have a nice evening
NATO doesn’t conquer countries to join NATO as Russia does, countries seek to join and sometimes are accepted and sometimes not, and sometimes they are turned down until they meet conditions.
They don’t push anywhere.
Yep, you are right. The reason is Yankee Dollars spread around like a Pedophile with candy.
Do you think I care an iota about upsetting The Ukraine?
They should give back my tax dollars if they don't appreciate what I think of them.
Don’t deflect. It’s a tell. It’s a tell that you are either a paid Russian troll, a Russian living in the US…or just someone repeating some garbage someone is selling on a YouTube channel.
It’s common with all of you guys. I you read the posts…your Russian just oozes out, making a mess all over the place. It’s either a bullying tactic, a syntax mistake, or a deeply imbedded Russian hatred.
Call Moscow and tell them you need a refresher class. You are slipping.
Maybe The FSB should assassinate Schwab and Soros?
Whatever they do, it isn't my concern. We have no dog in this hunt.
Pierre, after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia's abject bankruptcy and devastation, Russia was no longer my enemy and still isn't. I cannot understand how a bytehead from Chicago should call them an enemy either.
Because they are: they say they are and they act like it.
As I said elsewhere, Russia is just returning to its historical mean of being a empire where its ruling class derives legitimacy from the loot it can extract by conquest and how many subject peoples it can oppress.
Are you crazy? That is the most idiotic thing I have read in a while.
Are you a paid Ukrainian troll, a Ukrainian living in the US…or just someone repeating some garbage someone is selling on a YouTube channel.
If you think I deflect, I believe you project.
Forgive my morbid curiosity, but - what exactly are we looking at there?
What’s that thing that looks somewhat like a human being, standing out in front of that destroyed T-whatever tank?
Sorry if one is missing the obvious.
Agree.
Agree.
Nonsense
No, Ukraine didn’t qualify, Sweden and Finland are desperate to get in and are having problems getting approved, Moldova is thought to try to seek membership, and even Switzerland is talking about it.
The reality is that a nation “asks” to be allowed to join NATO and then must face a unanimous vote of currently 30 countries, to find out if they make it.
NATO is not pushing anywhere.
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