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To: FLT-bird

Note that you clubbed a lot in a sentence - not all correct

‘the idiots who created yugoslavia’ — this was a popular movement among the Southern Slavs. It worked until Serbians tried to impose themselves upon the other nationalities.

The 3 million ethnic Germans in Czechia was a difficult case - yes, it was incorrect to put them there demographically, but the thing is that the Germans inhabited all the mountain areas. That would give a Czech only state as basically defenseless.

The Germans in Poland were actually pretty patriotic Poles - read about the Germans in Łódź and in Warsaw who refused to be marked as “VolksDeutsch” - and even today I know quite a few Poles with the surnames Schulz, Merklejn, Putz etc. who are pretty patriotic Poles. The Germans in Danzig/Gdańsk — yes, they felt more connected to Germany.

The Germans in France — Alsace and Lorraine — now that was a historical tragedy dating to Charlemagne/Karolus Magnus/Karl de GroB/ Karol Wielki — and he split his empire among his sons, with the eldest Lothair taking the middle area.

Lothair-land got squeezed between East and West Francia (Germany and France) until all that was left was Lorraine/Lotharingia.

Alsace and Lorraine are both unique culturally - at least in the 1800s they were not French, but not Bavarian leave alone Prussian/Saxon either.

I really dislike the French centralization how they have obliterated all the local cultures like Picardy, Gascon and of course Brittany, Langue d’Oc and Alsace and Lorraine.

The current German way or the Swiss way of multiple nations running themselves in subsidiarity but clubbing together for monetary union and against invaders is a good way imho


24 posted on 11/24/2022 5:33:46 AM PST by Cronos (.)
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To: Cronos
this was a popular movement among the Southern Slavs. It worked until Serbians tried to impose themselves upon the other nationalities.

This was a reward to the Serbs for starting WWI. Nobody ever asked the Croats, Slovenes, etc etc.

The 3 million ethnic Germans in Czechia was a difficult case - yes, it was incorrect to put them there demographically, but the thing is that the Germans inhabited all the mountain areas. That would give a Czech only state as basically defenseless.

It may be inconvenient but government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. Nobody every asked the 3 million Sudeten Germans if they wished to be an oppressed minority in a newly created state.

The Germans in Poland were actually pretty patriotic Poles - read about the Germans in Łódź and in Warsaw who refused to be marked as “VolksDeutsch” - and even today I know quite a few Poles with the surnames Schulz, Merklejn, Putz etc. who are pretty patriotic Poles. The Germans in Danzig/Gdańsk — yes, they felt more connected to Germany.

Again, they simply carved a swath through Germany paying no attention to the wishes of the locals and not ever consulting them in order to give Poland access to the sea. There were LOTS of ethnic Germans in those territories who did not want to be part of Poland - thus all the ethnic cleansing after the war.

The Germans in France — Alsace and Lorraine — now that was a historical tragedy dating to Charlemagne/Karolus Magnus/Karl de GroB/ Karol Wielki — and he split his empire among his sons, with the eldest Lothair taking the middle area.

Elsass and Lothringen were part of the Holy Roman Empire (of the German nation). They did not even become part of France until the Treaty of Vienna after the Napoleonic wars allowed France to keep some of the land they stole during their wars of aggression against their neighbors. (Corsica is another example).

The current German way or the Swiss way of multiple nations running themselves in subsidiarity but clubbing together for monetary union and against invaders is a good way imho

Federalism and decentralized power - particularly for historically decentralized nations - is a good way to go. Of course the Germans didn't figure this out for themselves. It was imposed on them mostly by the Americans after the war. It has worked quite well though. Given Germany's much more decentralized history as compared to say, Britain or France, it was easy to make historical kingdoms/duchies, etc into federal states ie Bundeslaender.

The Entente Powers created a LOT of problems at Versailles and this had a huge hand in causing another World War. They talked about no subject nationalities or secret treaties and the right of people to self determination and democracy....and then shat on every principle they claimed to hold dear in their vindictive desire to harm the Germans, Austrians and Hungarians at all costs. Its no wonder the Germans had no affection for Democracy after that....nor that the Austrians welcomed the Anschluss they voted for democratically in 1919 but were not allowed to have.

27 posted on 11/24/2022 6:12:06 AM PST by FLT-bird
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