Posted on 11/19/2022 2:57:12 AM PST by Cronos
No one wants to sit down with foes who bomb their homes indiscriminately and target their energy infrastructure, plunging households into darkness and forcing surgeons in hospitals to perform operations by torchlight.
And as the remains of civilians tortured by Russian soldiers occupying the southern city of Kherson are unearthed, the cold fury Ukrainians felt at the documented abuses — from rape to casually gunning down non-combatants in Bucha and Irpin — only intensifies.
.... Nuts!” also fairly sums up the reaction of “ordinary” Ukrainians I spoke with this week, as to whether they would endorse peace negotiations — and whether they’d be willing to trade any land in the Donbas, or the whole of Crimea, for peace.
Yuliya Grigor, whose soldier husband is currently undergoing treatment for severe shell shock, said Ukraine can win this fight, if the West stays true and constant. The 35-year-old charity worker, who is from Mauripol but now lives in Lviv, said, “Russians don’t understand that however many missiles they throw at us, we won’t give in, surrender or negotiate. And they can’t divide us.”
“We don’t have anything to talk about. Putin doesn’t understand Ukraine is a separate, sovereign country and is united. Anyway, he doesn’t even know the meaning of the word peace. So, there is no sense in talking with them,” she added. ...
Yuliya isn’t alone in her vehemence. I interviewed a dozen others in the underground parking lot of a Lviv shopping mall that now serves as a bomb shelter...
“I disagree, and there can be no talks, no agreements because Russia will always break any deals; you can’t trust them. All countries recognized Ukraine’s borders in 1991, and this is our country."
(Excerpt) Read more at politico.eu ...
Update on Russian military operations in and around Ukraine for November 16, 2022
- Russia continues its campaign targeting Ukrainian infrastructure with missiles and drones;
- A recent barrage consisted of over 90 missiles, significantly degrading Ukraine's power grid;
- The West has said since April Russia was running out of missiles, yet large-scale use of missiles continues;
- Russia is also now using long-range precision kamikaze drones meaning Russia appears to have a growing number of long-range precision weapons;
- During the recent barrage it appears at least 2 Ukrainian air defense missiles missed their targets and struck civilians in Poland;
- After claiming Russia is a threat to Europe, it is a terrible irony that Ukraine is responsible for the first strike on NATO territory since Russian operations began in late February;
You have it backwards. Those advocating for Ukraine to surrender to Russian aggression are the ones pushing national suicide.
And the infrastructure is back and running in weeks, while Russian troops keep retreating.
The greater majority of the people in the Donetsk people’s Republic and the Luhansk people’s Republic left after Putin’s invasion and annexation
Countries in central Europe petitioned to join NATO to get protection from Russian expansion.
Russia’s action in 2008, 2014 and 2022 process that Romania, Poland, Latvia, Bulgaria Estonia etc were right yo join NATO.
Russia invades its non NATO neighbours
The blood of Ukrainians is spilt by Putin.
If the USA didn’t give Ukraine the means to repel the invaders then more Ukrainians would die under Russian persecution and also in their guerrilla war against the invaders.
You are actually reducing the number of Ukrainian lives lost by helping the Ukrainians to push out the invader
Perhaps not the world, but most certainly the parts of the former Soviet Union that have escaped Moscow’s control.
Your entire argument breaks down at point A. The war was started by Putin.
Not if Ukraine was negotiating from a position of strength. They’re kicking ass and taking names, and Russia is reeling.
[Excerpt:]
1. There are two Minsk Agreements, not just one. The first “Minsk Protocol” was signed on September 5, 2014. It mainly consists of a commitment to a ceasefire along the existing line of contact, which Russia never respected. By February 2015, fighting had intensified to a level that led to renewed calls for a ceasefire, and ultimately led to the second Minsk Agreement, signed on February 12, 2015. Even after this agreement, Russian-led forces kept fighting and took the town of Debaltseve six days later. The two agreements are cumulative, building on each other, rather than the second replacing the first. This is important in understanding the importance, reflected in the first agreement, of an immediate ceasefire and full monitoring by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), including on the Ukraine-Russia border, as fundamental to the subsequent package of agreements.
2. Russia is a Party to the Minsk Agreements. The original Minsk signatories are Russia, Ukraine, and the OSCE. Russia is a protagonist in the war in Ukraine and is fully obliged to follow the deal’s terms. Despite that, however, Russia untruthfully claims not to be a party and only a facilitator — and that the real agreements are between Ukraine and the so-called “separatists,” who call themselves the Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples’ Republics (LPR and DPR), but are in fact Russian supplied and directed.
3. The LPR and DPR are not recognized as legitimate entities under the Minsk Agreements. The signatures of the leaders of the so-called Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples’ Republics were added after they had already been signed by Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE. They were not among the original signatories, and indeed Ukraine would not have signed had their signatures been part of the deal. There is nothing in the content or format of the Agreement that legitimizes these entities and they should not be treated as negotiating partners in any sense. Russia alone controls the forces occupying parts of eastern Ukraine.
4. Russia is in violation of the Minsk Agreements. The deals require a ceasefire, withdrawal of foreign military forces, disbanding of illegal armed groups, and returning control of the Ukrainian side of the international border with Russia to Ukraine, all of this under OSCE supervision. Russia has done none of this. It has regular military officers as well as intelligence operatives and unmarked “little green men” woven into the military forces in Eastern Ukraine. The LPR and DPR forces are by any definition “illegal armed groups,” that have not been disbanded. The ceasefire has barely been respected by the Russian side for more than a few days at a time.
5. Russian-led forces prevent the OSCE from accomplishing its mission in Donbas as spelled out in the Minsk Agreements. It is an unstated irony in Vienna — understood by every single diplomatic mission and member of the international staff — that Russia approves the mandate of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) in Ukraine when it votes in Vienna, but then blocks implementation of that same mission on the ground in Ukraine. Because Russia is a member of the OSCE, and the SMM wants to preserve what little access it has to the occupied territories, the mission is guarded in what it says about ceasefire violations and restrictions on its freedom of movement. Privately, however, they acknowledge that some 80% of such violations and restrictions come from the Russian-controlled side of the border, and those that occur on the Ukrainian side are largely for safety reasons (e.g., avoiding mined approaches to bridges.)
6. Ukraine has implemented as much of Minsk as can reasonably be done while Russia still occupies its territory. The agreements require political measures on Ukraine’s side, including a special status for the region, an amnesty for those who committed crimes as part of the conflict, local elections, and some form of decentralization under the Ukrainian constitution. But the form of these measures is not specified, and Ukraine has already passed legislation addressing every point. It has passed – and extended with renewals – legislation on special status and amnesty, and already has legislation on the books governing local elections. It has passed constitutional amendments. The Minsk Agreements do not require Ukraine to grant autonomy to Donbas, or to become a federalized state. It is Russia’s unique interpretation that the measures passed by Ukraine are somehow insufficient, even though the agreements do not specify what details should be included, and Ukraine has already complied with what is actually specified to the degree it can.
What is lacking in Ukraine’s passage of these political measures is not the legislation per se, but implementation — which Russia itself prevents by continuing to occupy the territory. For example, international legal norms would never recognize the results of elections held under conditions of occupation, yet that is exactly what Russia seeks by demanding local elections before it relinquishes control. Moreover, the elections would not be for positions in the illegitimate LPR and DPR “governments” established under Russian occupation, but for the legitimate city councils, mayors, and oblast administrations that exist under Ukrainian law. Who would vote in such elections? Ukrainian law says all displaced citizens should vote. But would Russian occupation authorities allow this? These are matters for resolution under international supervision – not for Russia to dictate terms.
Minsk agreements — Following the separatist victory at Donetsk International Airport in defiance of the Protocol, DPR spokesman Eduard Basurin said that “the Minsk Memorandum will not be considered in the form it was adopted”.
Later in the day, DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the DPR “will not make any attempts at ceasefire talks any more”, and that his forces were going to “attack right up to the borders of Donetsk region”
Gorbachev and the documents show ZERO promise not to enlarge
What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR. I was a deputy director on the State Department’s Soviet desk at the time, and that was certainly the point of Secretary James Baker’s discussions with Gorbachev and his foreign minister, Eduard Shevardnadze. In 1990, few gave the possibility of a broader NATO enlargement to the east any serious thought.=======================================The agreement on not deploying foreign troops on the territory of the former GDR was incorporated in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, which was signed on September 12, 1990 by the foreign ministers of the two Germanys, the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France. Article 5 had three provisions:
- Until Soviet forces had completed their withdrawal from the former GDR, only German territorial defense units not integrated into NATO would be deployed in that territory.
- There would be no increase in the numbers of troops or equipment of U.S., British and French forces stationed in Berlin.
- Once Soviet forces had withdrawn, German forces assigned to NATO could be deployed in the former GDR, but foreign forces and nuclear weapons systems would not be deployed there.
When one reads the full text of the Woerner speech cited by Putin, it is clear that the secretary general’s comments referred to NATO forces in eastern Germany, not a broader commitment not to enlarge the Alliance.
Former Soviet President Gorbachev’s View
We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”
Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.
Several years after German reunification, in 1997, NATO said that in the “current and foreseeable security environment” there would be no permanent stationing of substantial combat forces on the territory of new NATO members. Up until the Russian military occupation of Crimea in March, there was virtually no stationing of any NATO combat forces on the territory of new members. Since March, NATO has increased the presence of its military forces in the Baltic region and Central Europe.
Putin is not stupid, and his aides surely have access to the former Soviet records from the time and understand the history of the commitments made by Western leaders and NATO. But the West’s alleged promise not to enlarge the Alliance will undoubtedly remain a standard element of his anti-NATO spin. That is because it fits so well with the picture that the Russian leader seeks to paint of an aggrieved Russia, taken advantage of by others and increasingly isolated—not due to its own actions, but because of the machinations of a deceitful West.
Here is the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany
to summarize , it means that Soviet forces would withdraw from East Germany, and that no foreign forces would be stationed there afterwards. In other words, after the withdrawal of Soviet troops, only the German military would be allowed to be stationed in the former East Germany.
NOTE -- not in the former East Germany.
Absolutely NOTHING about going to Poland, the Baltics etc.
So stop repeating the lie about "promised to not go one inch further east"
Because Putin grabbed power 22 years ago. Since 2008 he has been launching regime change in his neighbourhood as that's what he can reach out to with his 4th rate military
2014 was no coup
In Feb 2014 people revolted against the Russian-backed thugs. That is known as Maidan Uprising in Kyiv. The uprising was sparked by the Ukrainian government decision to not sign a trade agreement with EU but to sign one with Russia instead (more corruption, more theft, more Russian brainwashed stupidity, brutality and gold toilets for the elite). People wanted democracy, no more Russia and no more corruption. Some 130 people died in those protests, mostly protesters and 18 cops killed by the protesters. The Russian government puppet thugs were ousted and some imprisoned for theft of state property, all in Feb 2014.
In retaliation, Putin brought in his tanks to Crimea and literally under the gun conducted a pole if the residents wanted to join Russia. Most voted for joining Russia. Crimea was annexed that way without any agreement from Ukraine. Putin also started the trouble in Donbas, a coal-rich, highly industrialized area of Ukraine coveted by several of his oligarchs. Ukrainians did not have much of a military, since everything was stolen and sold elsewhere by the previous Russian-backed crims, and could not defend Crimea but they dug in and refused to let Donbas go. Thus the war in Donbas started. Putin supported that war with supplies and troops and kept it going and it is still ongoing.
The new government of Ukraine finally got to work in 2014 creating a nation, uprooting corruption. creating structures and protocols of a free society. As a part of that process, the military was being overhauled or really created with the US help. That military had plenty of troops but not enough equipment and hardware but it was becoming a true military force. That only started in 2014 and it took some time to overcome the cynicism, corruption and the inertia of the previous era but those were overcome.
Ukraine was independent.
This war happened precisely because it was independent - and Putin doesn’t see it as a “legitimate country”
But, you don't have to live and suffer in Ukraine so you can keep spewing this bullshit without consquence.
Put the drugs down. Cronut.
Your idiocy is #mindnumbing enough.
15 US involved Regime Changes prior to 1945.
Germany, 1945
Japan, 1945
Syria, 1949
South Korea, 1953
Iran, 1953
Guatemala, 1954
Congo, 1960
Laos, 1960
Iraq, 1963
Brazil, 1964
British Guiana, 1964
Bolivia, 1964
Dominican Republic, 1965
Indonesia, 1965
Ghana, 1966
Greece, 1967
Cambodia, 1970
Bolivia, 1971
Chile, 1973
Australia, 1975
Portugal, 1976
Argentina, 1976
Jamaica, 1980
Turkey, 1980
Chad, 1982
Fiji, 1987
Nicaragua, 1987
Afghanistan, 1989
Panama, 1989
Bulgaria, 1990
Albania, 1991
Yugoslavia, 2000
Ecuador, 2000
Afghanistan, 2001
Venezuela, 2002
Iraq, 2003
Haiti, 2004
Libya, 2011
US Regime Change of Syria FAILED.
US Attempting Regime in Russia FAILING.
‘Thrifty Authoritarians: U.S. Regime Change 1945-Present’
http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/1572/thrifty-authoritarians-us-regime-change-1945-present
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
“Repeat the lie”
Please do count the ways in which you and your propaganda peddling merry idiots have continually and consistently lied within FR since March of this year....and still lie.
Some people like to watch the world burn down and you idiots are chief among them.
Wasting 10K Ukrainian lives against the Russians to kill a hundred is worth it to you idiots because of your Russophobia.
Starting WWIII against the Russians is worth it to you idiots just to kill Russians because of your Russophobia.
You pathological suicidal hate-filled idiots in a nutshell.
https://transnational.live/2022/05/28/jack-matlock-ukraine-crisis-should-have-been-avoided/
A tour de force review of the Ukrainian situation and how we got here by former US Ambassador to the Soviet Union and career diplomat Jack Matlock.
“So far as Ukraine is concerned, U.S. intrusion into its domestic politics was deep—to the point of seeming to select a prime minister. It also, in effect, supported an illegal coup d’etat that changed the Ukrainian government in 2014, a procedure not normally considered consistent with the rule of law or democratic governance.”
And you're not a Ukrainian who would have to live under the Russian boot if Ukraine surrendered, so the exact same reasoning applies to you.
The Ukrainians are making the choice to fight. As long as they're willing to defend their country while degrading the Russian military, they deserve our help.
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