Posted on 10/07/2022 8:22:55 AM PDT by Kazan
What a difference a decade makes. There was a time when the United States would talk to Russia with at least the pretense of respect. Remember this exchange between then Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Barack Obama?
That was then. Mr. Medvedev is singing quite a different tune now. He made this public statement yesterday:
It is useless and unnecessary to appeal to the prudence of our enemies in the West, the enemies must be forced to ask for mercy in the lost economic battle and end it with their complete and unconditional surrender
I do not believe that Dimitry Medvedev was drunk or insane when he said this. I believe he is serious and reflects a view that is widely shared among the Russian leadership. The last seven months has been an eye opener for Medvedev and his colleagues in terms of discovering that the Americans and Europe see Russia as a piece of meat to be carved up and consumed. There is no solution based on compromise or negotiation with the west. Medvedev laid it out starkly and concisely–“complete and unconditional surrender.”
I have seen zero media coverage of this. That is alarming. The American people need to understand that Russia ain’t playing and is not going to roll over and submit like a beaten dog just because the United States insists it will continue to funnel arms and money to Ukraine.
Put yourself in the shoes of the Russian leaders and people. Here is what they have seen over the last 8 years since the democratically elected President of Ukraine was ousted by a western backed coup:
*While professing a deep commitment to democracy, America and Europe ignored the voters of Ukraine and helped orchestrate the unlawful removal of President Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych on the 22 of February 2014.
*In the aftermath of that coup, the newly installed Ukrainian government embarked on a war against Russian speaking Ukrainians. Ukraine wantonly killed civilians and the west remained silent.
*Despite repeated warnings from Russia that it would not tolerate western efforts to bring Ukraine into NATO, the United States and Europe conducted annual military exercises with Ukraine and provided military training and assistance.
Russia’s attempt to negotiate in December 2021 with the United States over the status of Ukraine was rebuffed.
*In response to Russia’s Special Military Operation, the United States and Europe imposed “draconian” sanctions and embarked on a full scale attempt to punish not just the political leaders of Russia, but all Russians, including denouncing Russia’s rich cultural heritage.
*The United States and Europe continue to supply Ukraine with weapons and ammunition that is being used to kill the newly incorporated citizens of Russia that reside in the Donbas, Kherson and Zaporhyzhia.
*Russia’s effort to negotiate a peace with Ukraine was shutdown by the U.K.’s Prime Minister, Boris Johnson. The United Kingdom, Poland and Ukraine announced a trilateral pact to promote Ukraine’s defense and independence in February 2022.
*The Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe and leading U.S. officials are calling for “decolonizing Russia”–i.e., breaking up Russia into geographic regions. Russia’s Nordstream gas pipelines were sabotaged.
Now there is something more ominous. Ukraine and Poland are rattling nuclear sabers. Let us start with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who called for the international community to take “preventive action” to deter the potential use of nuclear weapons by Russia in the ongoing war in Ukraine by attacking Russia:
In an address to the Lowy Institute, a nonpartisan international policy think tank in Australia, Zelensky underscored the importance of “preventive strikes, preventive action” so that Russia can get a better picture of the potential consequences if they move to use nuclear weapons.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3677256-zelensky-calls-for-preventive-action-to-deter-russian-nuclear-strikes/
Vladimir Putin’s Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov reacted firmly, clearly reflecting President Putin’s position about Zelensky’s foolish remarks:
The United States, the United Kingdom de facto lead the activities of Kiev, and therefore they should be responsible for Zelensky’s statements
https://eprimefeed.com/economy/peskov-called-the-united-states-and-the-united-kingdom-responsible-for-zelenskys-statement/197561/
Poland made mattes worse by claiming this week that it asked the United States to base nuclear weapons in Poland. Polish President Duda told Bloomberg News:
“The problem, first of all, is that we don’t have nuclear weapons,” Duda said in an interview with the Gazeta Polska newspaper published on Wednesday. “There is always a potential opportunity to participate in nuclear sharing.” . . .
“We have spoken to American leaders about whether the US is considering such a possibility” of Poland sharing the weapons, Duda told the newspaper. “The topic is open.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-05/poland-is-in-talks-with-us-about-nuclear-weapons-president-says
I was a youngster when the Cuban Missile Crisis brought the world to the brink of a nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union. The Soviets reacted to the United States placing nuclear missiles in Turkey and decided to give the United States a taste of its own medicine. The United States was horrified at the prospect of having Soviet missiles 90 miles from our shores and reacted strongly. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and a deal was cut that committed the Soviets to removing the missiles from Cuba followed by the United States removing the nukes from Turkey. Why would anyone sane person think that the west could now place nukes almost on the border of Russia and that Russia would not care nor react? This is madness.
Vladmir Putin is not a delusional paranoid. He is taking the west at its word and accepts the reality that the United States and Europe want to destroy Russia. Putin is committed to preventing that and it is now clear that the members of his government and the people of Russia are awakened to this threat. If you were in Putin’s place, what would you do? How would you react?
John Bolton: "Putin must go: Now is the time for regime change in Russia."
I wonder what Bolton's freeper name is...
I do wish people who continue to fall for this utter cobblers from Russia, would simply learn to bloody read. It really is absolute bollocks.
Russia had received (informally and with deniability) assurances from NATO as far back as 2007 that Ukraine would have to jump though a near-impossible set of hoops to even get as far as being able to make a credible application to join. And it received DIRECT AND EXPLICIT confirmation that Ukraine was withdrawing its NATO membership aspirations, in the April negotiations.
Ukraine is a NATO Enhanced Opportunities Partner, and has been since June 2020 - it has acquired the same status as Australia, Finland, Georgia, Jordan and Sweden. For it to advance further, it has to satisfy a whole range of criteria on top - so even after qualifying for partnership status it didn't make their chance to join NATO a done deal: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_176327.htm
On Friday (12 June 2020), the North Atlantic Council recognised Ukraine as an Enhanced Opportunities Partner. This status is part of NATO’s Partnership Interoperability Initiative.... Ukraine’s status as an Enhanced Opportunities Partner does not prejudge any decisions on NATO membership.
Then there's this from 2007: https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2007/04/01/nato-and-ukraine-at-the-crossroads/index.html
The [NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in November 2002] aims to deepen and broaden the NATO-Ukraine relationship and to support Ukraine’s reform efforts on the road towards full integration in Euro-Atlantic structures. It sets out specific objectives, covering political and economic issues; security, defence and military issues; information issues; and legal issues. These objectives are supported by Annual Target Plans in which Ukraine sets its own targets for the activities it intends to pursue both internally and in cooperation with NATO.The Action Plan itself will not lead directly to membership. However, its successful implementation is regarded as a precursor to an invitation to join NATO’s Membership Action Plan, and would help Ukraine move towards meeting the requirements expected of a candidate for NATO membership.
Ten years later: https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2017/03/10/ukraine-three-years-on-a-basis-for-optimism/index.html
It is widely recognised that profound internal transformation is prerequisite to Ukraine becoming ‘a full member of the European family of civilised nations’1. Fewer realise that it is also vital to Ukraine’s security. ... To his credit, President Poroshenko has upheld the fundamentals of political democracy in Ukraine, but he has not promoted a deep reform of the system of power or taken meaningful measures against oligarchic interests. In this free but opaque environment, Russia continues to work intensively to destabilise the country via hybrid methods.
And, before the Special Military Operation, last August: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_186177.htm
The Deputy Secretary General thanked Ukraine for its contributions to NATO missions and exercises, as well as for its efforts to evacuate not only its own citizens but also those of Allies, partners and Afghans. He also welcomed Ukraine’s progress in delivering on key reforms and encouraged the government to stay the course, particularly on the issues of defence governance, parliamentary oversight and transparency. He stressed that these reforms are essential, both to bring Ukraine closer to NATO, but first and foremost to build security and development for all Ukrainians.
Press conference in January: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_191254.htm - in response to a direct question from TASS. the answer was clear - the open door policy and the European defense objectives are non-negotiable, but as regards Ukraine any future alliance membership still needed the reforms articulated pretty much every time Russia brings it up:
Our focus now is on the reforms, is to help to modernize and strengthen the defense and security institutions, and to meet NATO standards.
Then there's this press conference in December 2021: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_190292.htm which again reiterated that there are foundational principles within NATO that Russia knows are totally non-negotiable and one of them is respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of nations in Europe, whether they're in NATO or not.
NATO’s support for Ukraine is not a threat to Russia. Ukraine has the right to choose its own security arrangements. This is a fundamental principle of European security. And the decision on whether Ukraine can join NATO will be taken by Ukraine and 30 NATO Allies alone. (in response to final question:
We'll continue to strive for meaningful dialogue with Russia. We are ready to sit down and discuss a wide range of issues, Confidence Building Measures, arms control, transparency, risk reduction, many other issues that can reduce the risk for instance, accidents or even an arm conflict in Europe. But we can never compromise on the main principle of respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all nations in Europe, including, of course, Ukraine.
NATO membership criteria are very clear and the accession process is also completely transparent. There are, in effect, four steps:
Since it's at war, even if it was completely free of corruption and every other NATO state approved of it joining, it can't join. This week prosecutions against fraud committed in the Poroshenko years made significant progress but it is still nowhere near enough to pass that hurdle. So it still can't join. And there is no unanimous approval for it joining NATO fully. It wants to apply, it wants to join, but it is abundantly obvious that NATO leaders were not going to even talk about dates - they kept kicking the can down the road, saying more reforms were needed.
Zelenskyy went to Biden last year for a definitive answer: https://www.reuters.com/world/zelenskiy-asks-us-clarity-nato-membership-plan-ukraine-2021-06-14/. Two direct quotes are pertinent:
If we are talking about NATO and the MAP, I would really like to get (from Biden) specifics - yes or no .... We must get clear dates and the likelihood of this for Ukraine. Everyone should understand and be more flexible, understand that we are at war, that we are defending democracy in Europe and defending our country, and therefore you cannot just talk to us with phrases about reforms.
So on all the general criteria, NATO has an open door but it also has a whole raft of hoops for Ukraine to jump through first - and nobody in NATO is willing to be specific about what those hoops are beyond the four key points above. Zelenskyy conceded in March this year that it amounted to "never gonna happen". The quotes from Zelenskyy are so widely reported that it's not credible to say he didn't make the admission on the record. But here's one account: https://thehill.com/policy/international/598335-zelensky-concedes-ukraine-unlikely-to-join-nato-seeks-security/
For years we heard about the apparently open door, but have already also heard that we will not enter there, and these are truths and must be acknowledged.
A few weeks later, when they were negotiating with Russia, the Ukrainian negotiator said flat out that Ukraine not joining NATO would probably be the easiest condition to meet because it was already clear at that point that NATO had put so many obstacles in the way that Ukraine had already conceded it wasn't worth pursuing.
And in fact a Russian correspondent in the British press reported it explicitly as,
"Ukraine's delegation earlier this week agreed to give up its Nato aspirations as long as the West were to offer it security guarantees "
The basis of Russia's complaint has nothing to do with Ukraine wanting to join NATO, or NATO wanting Ukraine to join. It's the sheer possibility that it could happen, because of NATO's open door policy, that enrages Russia. Hence its ultimatum to NATO to the effect that NATO must forever rule out Ukraine ever joining NATO. But, don't forget, Russia also tagged onto its wish list in February, NATO withdrawing its protections to the Baltic states.
We don't tell Russia that they can't let certain countries join their alliances and we sure as hell don't tell them that they must kick existing members out. These demands must never be met by us - they are tantamount to telling NATO it has to completely bin its open door policy.
And besides, we keep telling Russia why Ukraine and Georgia will not be joining NATO any time soon. Even Zelenskyy's told them. The real problem is, Russia is pretending to be deaf.
The next big war, world war won’t be in some far off land. Americans won’t simply be tuning in to see highlights regarding the progression of events.
It will reach our soil. Americans will be shocked and stunned. Doesn’t have to be nuclear to reach out and touch our coastal cities and infrastructure.
Folks better be prepared.
The Free Nations of Russia Forum is a foreign conference of the Russian opposition, regional and separatist movements, as well as Western sympathizers.
According to its own statements, the forum aims to fight for “Decolonization, de-occupation, decentralization, de-Putinization, denazification and demilitarisation of Russia.”
First forum
The first Free Nations of Russia Forum was held on 8-9 May, 2022 in Warsaw, Poland. The event was organized by the Solidarity of Journalists Foundation.
The forum was attended by former State Duma deputy Ilya Ponomarev, as well as representatives of several regionalist and separatist movements within Russia, such as those of Bashkortostan, Chechnya and Siberia.
At the first forum, the Free Russia Forum, another gathering of Russian opposition, was openly criticised, with journalist Vadim Shtepa claiming that the latter was dominated by “centralist thinking.”
Also participating in the forum was Belarusian opposition politician Pavel Latushko, MEP and former Polish Foreign Minister Anna Fotyga, former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin, and former U.S. Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller.
The forum participants called for, among other things, the dissolution of Russia and claimed that overt linguocide, ethnocide, and genocide were being committed by the government of Russia against non-Russians, both in Ukraine and Russia.
Second forum
The second forum was held in Prague, Czech Republic on 22-24 July 2022. The forum was attended by Ponomarev, Klimkin, and former Chechen leader Akhmed Zakayev, among others.
The forum adopted a declaration calling for Russia to be declared a terrorist state and decolonized. A map was published on the forum, where Russia is divided into 34 states, including an independent Chechnya and Siberia.
Kammy was running her mouth about NATO membership for the Ukraine in Munchen, the week before the Special Military Operation kicked off.
That was a very different time.
Here’s the thing. The FReepers that are for taking the war to Russia, and some who are specifically mentioning using nuclear weapons preemptively against Russia need to throw their support behind President Biden. Notice how NONE, and I mean NONE will do that on FR?
I’ve maintained for a couple of months that Biden needs to address the nation and lay out what what the risks are to the US if Russia uses nuclear weapons. Because there are risks, considering how the U.S. and NATO would respond.
That link gives a transcript where Kamala goes on restating all the “in principle, open door policy” stuff and then lists the obstacles.
It doesn’t happen overnight. No one country can say “I want to be, and therefore I will be.” And no one country can say “You can’t be.”
If English isn’t your first language and you don’t understand diplomatic nuances, but even Russian diplomats would’ve understood the two messages.
Message 1: NATO is not going to have Russia tell it which sovereign and independent nation states can and can’t join NATO. Ever. The open door is a foundational principle. The Baker agreements applied only to vassals of the Soviet Union for the lifetime of that Union; a state isn’t a vassal of the USSR can apply. The door is always open. End of story. Non negotiable.
Message 2: having said that, application doesn’t guarantee membership. Ukraine will only be admitted to the NATO alliance if it is completely at peace with Russia; it has completely resolved the issues of the oligarchs, political and financial services corruption; Russia doesn’t threaten war if it joins; all 30 members approve.
Maybe she could’ve added “in other words, you thick bastards, we’re already doing everything possible to ensure it ain’t gonna happen, short of ripping up the NATO alliance’s non-negotiable principles” but she didn’t.
Do you think she should’ve said it in idiot proof language for an audience with a reading age of five, to be sure that any Russians could understand it?
There's a reason that we booted the English out of America.
"Lie like an Englishman", aka Perfidious Albion
A defense treaty? No big deal. There’s about 0% probability of us attacking Mexico so why would we care?
We know what the chance of Russia invading Ukraine was. No wonder Ukraine wanted a mutual defense treaty.
Without our equipment Russia would have won this months ago.
If Russia hadn’t invaded their sovereign neighbor this never would have started. I don’t think it would be good for Russia to win under these circumstances.
I read the link that you provided and rather surprisingly, she didn't screw up and and make any promises about Ukrainian membership in NATO. She said nothing of the sort, or say anything different from the accurate rundown of NATO membership policy provided by Mall Pierce.
But if you believe that your link says something to the contrary, why don't you quote the specific language from the transcript of her remarks that you believe contradicts what was said here.
But you won't, because it doesn't exist.
Everyone except for you two knows that Roundheels is a wind-up doll, who spews whatever they tell her to, just like King Puppet.
They told her to bring up NATO and the Ukraine in the same sentence.
Roundheels McClownlaugh couldn't help herself:
THE VICE KNEELER: Let me start by saying I appreciate and admire President Zelenskyy’s desire to join NATO. And one of, again, the founding principles of NATO is that each country must have the ability — unimpaired, unimpeded — to determine their own future, both in terms of their form of government and, in this case, whether they desire to be a member of NATO.
And I’ll put that in context, because the obvious is also the point, which is that: and therefore no other country can tell anyone whether they should or should not join NATO. That should be their independent choice. That is the point of sovereignty. So I respect President Zelenskyy’s desire to be a member of NATO.
=================================
vp Airhead doesn't get it.
Dirty RuZZia said NO. End of discussion.
That has been NATO's stance since its founding. So what's the problem?
Good article, I agree. I would not trust some of these war mongering idiots in the district of corruption either.
“Russian males are so mad, they are leaving Russia by the hundreds of thousands. Others are fighting for Ukraine against Putin. Putin has made Russians very angry. How long can he remain in power?”
So true. Thanks for your comment
“I just put on my thinking babushka. It says the Russian people would rather whack Putin than fight America. It only needs one Russian to take Putin out. And it wouldn’t take eight months like beating Ukraine.”
True. Also, break away Ukraine territories no longer want to break away.
So smart guy, tell me what should nato and US do if Russia uses tactical nukes in Ukraine?
“Do you think Putin would have withdrawn his troops if Ukraine agreed not to join NATO?
What gives Putin the right to demand that in the first place?”
I TOTALLY agree with you. Putin said where ever there was a Russia citizen is part of Russian federation.
Putin has an 80% popularity rating. I’d vote for him over droules Biden in a hart beat. He is a nationalists that is rebuilding his country that the communists destroyed.
Guess that makes me a Putinsta here, at least he’s a fricking real man. We had Eurkile and now a mentally demented idiot. How grand!
“I just put on my thinking babushka”
A woman’s headscarf, Too cute! LOL
Babushka is a scarf worn tied under the chin often by an older woman [thus babushka.]
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