Posted on 10/02/2022 4:55:58 AM PDT by Timber Rattler
Don’t worry, that is the only outcome available. It is a no win situation and it is unfortunate that it is costing so much for an outcome such as that.
I think he likes to post giant oversized ghoulish photos. He knows people are dying on both sides but it takes a true sociopath to take such delight in posting gruesome pics that tell us nothing and prove no point.
Don’t be a retard.
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/9859618
You can link anything like you are attempting to do.
The problem is that Ukraine historically DID collaborate with the Nazis, they have youth programs that are national socialist “open public knowledge” (except in America where we don’t want to see this now) that are paid for with tax money, you have military and para military units that are openly Nazi in their idiology, you have the president of Ukraine praising folks like Azov...
I can dig up images of US troops with swastika flags too, but the US government in no knowingly way condones, advocates, supports this crap within its military. I am sure if you dig, you can find some guy somewhere in the US armed forces that is in the kkk. I’m sure you can find some guy in the German army that is a Nazi... But institutionally and society wide, these are not representative or supported ideas. Likewise, Russia is ANTI-nazi. They are about as ANTI-nazi as it comes and that is why Putin uses this argument, because in Russia it has wide appeal and an infuriating effect.
Some arguments only have appeal because they prey on the ignorance of the public. This is one such case.
Listen doofus everybody that collaborated with the Nazis is dead or in their 90’s. So as an excuse to invade Ukraine it’s BS.
This shower of pro-Ukraine propaganda on FR is very stunning. Never seen anything like it.
But the idiology lives, and you have state sponsorship of programs and organizations that are Nazi, so the argument by the Russians isn’t entirely false.
While I agree that it is more a front argument (used to get people pissed in Russia) and not the true motivation, it is nonetheless not entirely wrong. We in the West that have decided Ukraine = good, Russia = bad just don’t want to see that.
That is why Azov was downplayed and many stories never even surfaced at all in the US. The MSM in the West lost all objectivity, neutrality, and professionalism years past. They are cheer leaders for whatever the fad and trend of the day is, their cause, may it be Covid, Ukraine, or their political bias...
Nonetheless, it is ironic that today the US is backing a leader (Mr Z) that refuses to distance himself from such nutjobs as Azov, that we armed them and even had advisors training them, as they gave Hitler salutes, used a modified version of a swastika as their own, and had a leader who was openly a Nazi sympathizer.
And now our media (junk news) actually is used in a public affairs campaign to turn that image around and create bogus associations to exactly those who fought and bled fighting the Nazis.
There weren’t Russians, there are Ukrainian’s:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Biletsky
He’s not 90.
He’s a founder of Azov, a card carrying Nazi, and in Ukrainian parliament.
See the difference yet?
BECAUSE RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE! Its simple, Invader bad, get it?
Nonetheless, it is ironic that today the US is backing a leader (Mr Z) that refuses to distance himself from such nutjobs as Azov
Only one side is massacring civilians, deporting hundreds of thousands of children from their homeland, and conquering and aggressively assimilating another state’s sovereign territory. One doesn’t need to look far to know who the true “fascists” are in this war.
The irony in this is that the true Nazi behavior is entirely on Putin’s part. His justifications for invading Ukraine have been Hitlerian, as he pushes Big Lies about ethnic Russians being allegedly persecuted in this or that region of the Ukraine. Amazingly, he claimed they were being targeted for “genocide” by the Ukrainian government. This is exactly what the Fuhrer charged against countries like Czechoslovakia and Poland in the late 1930s.
In fact, when you saw the title of this article, you probably thought I was referring to just that. But no, the Hitler-like actions are being committed by a Russian authoritarian who simultaneously levels charges of “Nazi” behavior at the Ukraine and its (for the record) Jewish president, Zelensky. Go figure. by Paul Kengor
Putin Plays the Nazi Card
https://spectator.org/putin-plays-the-nazi-card/
In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election he was placed 2nd on the joined list of Svoboda with the far-right National Corps, the Governmental Initiative of Yarosh and Right Sector. His party did not win enough votes to clear the 5% election threshold and thus did not gain any parliamentary seats.
Now do Russian fascists who sit now in the Russian parliament.
We invaded Afghanistan, are we bad?
Russia had security reasons for what they did, as we would have if in their shoes.
Ukraine also was abusing ethic Russians for years, and we also conveniently ignored those reports and accounts reported on by observers on the ground. You should read some of the swiss reports, they tell a slightly different story.
Russia is about a fascist as we are. If there is one thing our media got right, it’s that they are a nation ruled by oligarchs. But even there we ignore that we are the same. There is a small elite in Western society that runs the place and they meet in places like Davos or wherever Bilderberg meets. In fact, our oligarchs control more of the world’s population, more landmass, there are more of them...
This war isn’t complicated to understand. We chose to ignore Russian interests and security concerns. Our oligarchs want Ukraine tied to the EU and NATO since this provides the legal framework, open markets, and physical security they want for their investments. However, this put Russia in an impossible situation.
This right here was the cause for this war:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/
The rest is just post rationalizing, make belief arguments...
To annex? Like Russians, in Ukraine and Georgia?
Russia is about a fascist as we are.
Please, that's bs. 'Little Russians', 'Ruskie Mir'.
Ukraine has a right to choose its own path and make its own alliances, but Russians will not tolerate that because of Russian fascism.
Russia is ruled by a small elite as we are.
Russia has a constitution that is about as real as ours is.
We kidnap, extra territorial rendition.
We torture, enhanced interrogations.
We lie, we cheat, we steal, and we assassinate.
We have secret courts, FISA.
We violate the citizens constitutional rights left and right (privacy, search and seizure, right for a jury trial)...
We censor (block communications, use the shroud secrecy to hide illegal acts...).
We back despotic leaders and even support the overthrow of democratically elected ones we don’t like, and some of our best friends and biggest trade partners have names like Saudi Arabia: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45812399
And China who we give most favored trade status the same year tanks drove over pro democracy students on Tienamin square: https://apnews.com/article/china-japan-crime-geneva-72426c36d1a4c0ae83d9520d2f19d840. We pushed to have them admitted to the WTO...
Please... Tell me how we are so different?
Folks on our payroll: https://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/
How about US troops guarding poppy fields? https://www.google.com/search?q=troops+guarding+poppy+fields&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&prmd=inv&sxsrf=ALiCzsZQw8PzY9b_tyTLUXPFxXmLKE5bOg:1664928457664&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPmq7q5cf6AhXDMEQIHQgiBTAQ_AUoAXoECAMQAQ&biw=393&bih=733&dpr=2.75
My bread is buttered on this side, but I don’t try to pretend we’re any different.
For money we’ll smile and roll out the red carpet for a despot, even crawl into his ass:
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/18/1112036563/the-outcomes-of-president-bidens-trip-to-saudi-arabia
Let me know when we invade to annex territories.
I’m in Mexico right now, they can tell you all about it.
Recently annexed. All nations were once built on expansion. World changed after WW2, especially when nuclear weapons are involved.
You mean like us deciding to go into Syria, a formal ally of Russia since the 1970s where they have a naval and air base. Did Syria ask for our help?
You’re trying very hard to somehow define things in a way where we are the good guys here. We’re not.
We cheated: Minsk agreement.
We lied: NATO East expansion.
We went back on our word: ballistic missile treaty.
We are motivated by economics.
It’s funny how we talk about sovereignty and Ukraine but when these people have a referendum and vote on becoming part of Russia, people that are ethnic Russian, then we use words like “annexation” and all our sovereignty talk no longer applies.
This is a war of economics. We have ZERO national security argument to make. None!!! That argument in fact goes to Russia.
This is a war where we no longer see Russia as a viable world power and simply feel that we can steamroll them. It was IMHO a gross underestimation of Russia and our leadership is figuring that out right now.
Now we are in damage control mode and at least in the Western media (no propoganda there) we can pretend as if we are the good guys and won! Yes we won! Ukraine lost 20% of its land and population, an industrial area, major port city, their economy is wiped out, thousands dead (yes Ukrainian’s did die even though you’d never know that from our media), millions are displaced, there won’t be a post war recovery like after 2014 and worst of all, the cause of this war NATO membership is off the table, just like EU membership which was entirely possible pre war. Clearly a huge victory for the US and Ukraine! Hahaha
And now we have folks like you playing with words trying to play “pretend” as if we’re the good guys here, because after all, we really want to see ourselves as the good guys.
We were the good guys, all the way up until we gave the green light for NATO admission in October 2021. That was a Biden administration call and it was a collosal failure. This is a disaster which is owned by one single man, Biden. The Ukraine can’t force their way into NATO. NATO isn’t the EUs club, it’s ours. This war isn’t about EU membership or anything else we are pretending it to be about, it’s about NATO East expansion.
This right here was the cause for war: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/
At that point we threatened Russia, ignored what we knew were their hard limits on what they would tolerate. We (the good guys) figured that we could make the cost for intervention so high that the Russians would acquiesce. We expected them to accept something we wouldn’t accept if in their shoes: see Cuban Missile Crisis and Nicuragua as historic examples.
But sure, sovereignty, democracy, human rights, unprovoked attack... Girls with blue and yellow ribbons in their hair holding a rifle. Cheesy-
What next? As time goes on, our friends will fall away. Soon the Germans will leave our side. We’re heading into winter and this is causing an internal political nightmare for them, even though their state run and entirely non propogandistic media is also playing victory stories...
False. No expansion of NATO eastward only covered East Germany. That's why there is a treaty-Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany. Gorbachev, the head of the Soviet Union confirmed this in later interviews, that there was no promise, since NATO expansion past Germany was never brought up in discussions.
The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and [German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich] Genscher talked about it.
Mikhail Gorbachev: I am against all walls Oct 16 2014
https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html
Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany
There was WWII where we were definitely the good guys and we definitely won.
We went through the Cold War where things got messy and we didn’t always do the right thing, but we were still the good guys fighting for the right cause in the bigger picture. The Soviets and Warsaw pact truly were the “evil empire.”
Then came 9-11 and even though Iraq and Afghanistan were plagued with missteps, we were justified.
But lately, we are no longer the good guys.
We are the ones that are expansionist, our motive has nothing to do with self defense, or even a higher cause (all front arguments - it’s all economics). Our MO includes gross violations of our own laws which we circumnavigate routinely and gross human rights violations such as torture, which we condone and are party too.
Look at us today! Who is the big globalist? The Russians or us? Who is expanding into the other guys areas, them into ours or us into theirs? Who is arming whack jobs like Azov? Who has a list of despots and repressive regimes as friends and major trading partners?
Times have changed. We are no longer the force for good as with Reagan. We lost our way. All we represent today are the economic interests of a few very powerful people and corporations (we are an oligarchy) and Ukraine is the epitome of this.
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
We are a nation where a single multi billion dollar firm simply changes the copyright laws to serve themselves: https://online.yu.edu/cardozo/blog/disney-influence-copyright-law
This is a war where Western economic interests want to see their investments secured and make even more. The average person doesn’t friggin care. It’s the multinational corporations, the huge investors that want EU and NATO membership for Ukraine and the political leadership follows suit while the MSM sings whatever tune serves these interests. Yes, names like Soros are huge supporters of your cause.
https://www.georgesoros.com/2022/02/26/we-must-stand-with-ukraine-as-they-stand-with-us/
The irony here is that the same folks that screamed no blood for oil when we legitimately bombed Libya in 1986, or called us a hegemon in the Cold War, that cried out that we were imperialist years past, are backing this war in the Ukraine today! Funny how all these leftist today like the German Der Spiegel or NYTs are lockstep behind this war and finding lists of ethical rationalizations for an outright immoral war (we crossed the line with NATO for Ukraine and at that point we put the Russians in a position where they are threatened).
You cannot give me a “just war” based argument for our involvement. All you can do is reheat some Cold War era fears that are bogus, trying to make out a nation with 55% our Army, 43% our USN, 47% our USAF, a handful of weak allies (while we have a lot and powerful ones), a GDP smaller than Texas, driving around in BTR70s and 80s with junk for tanks (a 72 on steroids) into some boogieman.
https://www.france24.com/en/russia/20220130-did-nato-betray-russia-by-expanding-to-the-east
Try reading something other than US based news. It’s revisionist, shallow, incomplete, biased... Junk. It’s always rationalizing whatever the fad of the day is, may it be abortion wrong now right, racism everywhere, sexism everywhere, homosexuality being wrong, homosexuality being cool and normal, war being wrong and bad if Bush is in office, but war being not so bad if a Clinton or Biden is in office... The American media is a never ending soap opera where like the show the West Wing they tell a story of why we are right, even if we’re wrong, why we’re winning, even as we lose.
Soon the entire Euro alliance is going to crumble. Internal politics. Once that happens...
We made 2 big errors.
1. We underestimated Russia. They are weaker and smaller than we are, but they still have a lot of pull on the world stage, and their armed forces are still capable of carrying out a complex campaign like this. The Russians actually did quite well in this war, i.e. combined and joint operations, psyop, use of special forces, Intel, modern weaponry, in a limited war, diversions use of political and economic measures and counter measures to our actions (obvious they had it all already planned out)... What we claim as a “failure” in our entirely fact based non propagandistic media is entirely the other way around, i.e. they achieved all their military objectives (take ground where you have ethnic Russians), and political goals (no NATO and ideally no EU membership). In plain language: they win we lose.
2. We never consider culture. That’s a common American weakness. We think others think like us. Russia has an incredible willingness to absorb pain. Look at the Chechnya wars as an example.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
They lose 5,000 men and 3 years they come back for more, losing 5,500 men but accomplishing their goals. Our entire gamble was based on creating pain, i.e. we do what we want and the pain is to big for Russia and they acquiesce. But what happens when you’re dealing with someone willing to take a bloody nose?
Now, while I have Russian vodka in Mexico because of our air tight sanctions which most the world isn’t abiding too (including Mexico and Brazil); Russia, Saudi Arabia and UAE agree to cut oil production by 1 million barrels a day. You can keep blogging how they’re crushed, destroyed and lost, but the Ruble is doing ok. You can keep telling yourself 20% inflation, a recession, and total failure of our Ukraine strategy isn’t real.
We should have left good alone!
Arming Ukraine made Russian aggression costly, but it didn’t threaten them nor escalate the situation to a war. Our entirely cognitive capable president, unlike Putin who suffers from a list of mental issues according to Western MSM, made the decision to bring Ukraine into NATO, and that will not happen and the Ukraine is now a basket case. Good doing!
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