Posted on 09/29/2022 2:49:04 PM PDT by SaxxonWoods
>> EVs are powered by electricity created by the burning of fossil fuels: <<
Actually, more false than true. First off, EVs simply use 60% less energy. Secondly, the power grid is 40% non-fossil fuel now, and frankly, going renewable at several times faster than any previous predictions, including those based on presuming massive subsidies. Thirdly, natural gas produces 55% less carbon than gasoline. So mile-for-mile, electric cars produce 87% less carbon than gas cars. And this is key: Faster adoption of EVs will result in faster adoption of renewable energy. See, fuel is not a sunk cost, but the physical power plant is. One reason power companies continue to use coal plants is simply that they’ve already been built. New wind and solar plants account for more than 100% of the net increase in electricity-generating capacity.
See, the big irony of all this fighting between Green Reds and conservatives is that the world is going to go mostly carbon-free simply because it’s a lot cheaper to get energy from solar than from coal, even without government meddling. Decades of false promises of cheap solar electricity have left conservatives believing we’ll NEVER get economically sensible solar power, and liberals believing that government force is necessary no matter what. But the truth is that the price of solar energy is falling almost like the price of computing power, and is now 95% cheaper then it was back in the 1960s when people first started to go solar.
(And no, government subsidies didn’t help: they ended up causing failed technologies to hinder successful ones by soaking up all the funding that niche uses would have provided.)
You're confusing cryogenic storage with pressurized cylinder storage. Since you work in a laboratory I'm assuming you know the difference between compressed gas and cryogenic liquid, so it would therefore follow that you're doing so deliberately.
But in case you're not: A standard high pressure H2 tank holds 200 cuft at stp or about 233 moles of H2 this is 466gm or a little over a pound. You're not going to get far on a pound of fuel. Liquid H2 is 4.432 lb/cuft so a 15 cuft cryogenic tank (at -423F) will hold about 66lb of H2 enough to go a reasonable distance depending on the engine size, efficiency, etc. IF you go before it all evaporates. AND it will evaporate constantly. NASA's Lh2 storage tanks have a vent pipe where they continuously burn the H2 coming off the tanks to prevent it from forming explosive mixtures at random places throughout their facilities (think air fuel bomb). I wonder how this would be handled in an automobile.
AFAIK, NO vehicular application to transportation is planning to use cryogenic storage. All the ones I have heard about will be high pressure gaseous compressed to 750 to 1000 Bar.
My comment was pointing out that a properly constructed compressed gas tank will not lose any discernable pressure in a month.
FALSE. FIRST It takes the same amount of energy to move a 4000 lb vehicle x number of miles irrespective of the power source. SECOND the battery adds significant weight to the vehicle over a similar petroleum fueled vehicle so it actually takes MORE energy to move a battery vehicle than an ICE powered vehicle where the only difference is the power train (BECAUSE THE POWER TRAIN IS MUCH HEAVIER.)
I suggest you read up on the 1st law of thermodynamics - Which stated plainly says you can't get something for nothing.. And before you say the electric motors are a lot lighter (which they are) I have a car with a 650 hp engine and the engine and transaxle together weigh 675 lb and a tesla battery and motor weigh about 1300 so the tesla drive train weighs about 625 lb more than my ICE drivetrain I'm not counting the radiators and cooling systems because both types have to have coolant - the ICE car for the motor and the battery car for the battery and I don't know how much they weigh anyway.
Well yes very true, but How much does a standard cylinder weigh and how many would you need to get any range at all? That gas is pretty high pressure 1000 bar is 14000 psi and you're going to need a mighty robust (ie heavy) structure to hold it.
Ultra-pressure gaseous hydrogen tanks are not made from metal...they are composites made from carbon fiber.
>> FALSE. FIRST It takes the same amount of energy to move a 4000 lb vehicle x number of miles irrespective of the power source. <<
You’re thinking of force, not energy. Different motors and engines can generate the same amount of FORCE with insanely varying amounts of ENERGY. MOST of the energy generated by an ICE is lost as heat.
>> SECOND the battery adds significant weight to the vehicle over a similar petroleum fueled vehicle so it actually takes MORE energy to move a battery vehicle than an ICE powered vehicle where the only difference is the power train (BECAUSE THE POWER TRAIN IS MUCH HEAVIER.) <<
Nope. The battery is significant weight, but in a pure EV, it REPLACES most of the ICE power train, rather than adding to it. A Tesla 3 weighs about 200 pounds more than a Camry... or less than 100 pounds more than a Camry with gas.
>> I suggest you read up on the 1st law of thermodynamics - Which stated plainly says you can’t get something for nothing <<
The first law of thermodynamics states that the total energy of a closed system (such as the universe) remains constant. A car is not a closed system. Most of the energy generated by an ICE is lost as heat, the vast, vast, vast majority of it.
Your interpretation of the first law is flawed you’re mixing it up withe the second that says the entropy of the universe increases with every action. The energy required is the same. Look at it this way. Do a thought experiment you have 50 kg load of shingles you have to get 5 meters up on the roof. You have a gas powered shingle lifter and an electric one. What is the energy required in each case? It’s exactly the same 2450 joules. If you get into where the energy comes from this is where the controversy comes in.
The weight issue: I looked up the Tesla power plant. The weight is about 1300 lb. I looked up my power plant it’s exactly 672 lb for the engine transaxle I forgot the weight of the fuel 18 gal tank which I run averaging half full which adds another 63 lb.which brings it up to 735 lb throw in 25 lb for the gas tank and it’s 760. The Tesla is Still 540 lb heavier requiring more. Modern gas Otto cycle engines are about 30% efficient at extracting useful work from fuel.
Comparing a Tesla to a Camray is apples to oranges you need to base the comparison on the drive train weight for a valid comparison.
>> Your interpretation of the first law is flawed you’re mixing it up withe the second that says the entropy of the universe increases with every action. <<
I’m not mixing it up. I actually used an exact quote from a textbook. Your problem is that you are confusing energy with force. It’s like you’ve got one fact that you’ve seized, and you’re ignoring everything else.
>> Modern gas Otto cycle engines are about 30% efficient at extracting useful work from fuel. <<
Yes, that’s the point. Electric cars are far more efficient, close to 90%. (But they lose a significant in transmission, so accounting for that, they’re only about 50% efficient.)
We’re still going around in circles. For the sake of discussion I’ll agree that electric motors get 90% conversion efficiency of the electricity supplied to them. But where do the get the electricity? From the battery which has about a 5% loss compared to the energy used to charge it. Where does the charging electricity come from? The power grid which averages 8% power loss. Where does the grid get its electricity? From fossil fuel 64% nuclear 20% hydro 6% wind 9% solar 2% and the rest from things like oil. The fossil fuel plants are about 33% efficient and the rest who knows. If you look at the thermodynamic efficiency of converting fossil fuel to kinetic energy an EV is only 26% efficient so you have to burn a fourth again as much fossil fuel to power a battery car as an ICE engineThis is offset somewhat by the rest of the mix
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