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To: marcusmaximus; Paul R.; Bruce Campbells Chin; PIF; familyop; MercyFlush; tet68; BeauBo; TalBlack; ..
Ukraine ping

The Biden administration's soaring rhetoric re the crumbs it's providing to Ukraine is completely unconnected to reality. In 1973, Nixon mounted Operation Nickel Grass. Here's the Wikipedia blurb:

Operation Nickel Grass was a strategic airlift operation conducted by the United States to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Over 32 days, the United States Air Force (USAF) Military Airlift Command (MAC) shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft between 14 October and 14 November 1973.[1][2]: 88  The U.S. support helped ensure that the State of Israel survived a coordinated and surprise attack from the Soviet-backed Arab Republic of Egypt and Syrian Arab Republic.[1]

Note that Israel was fighting a bunch of Arabs it had defeated on multiple occasions - in 1948, 1956 and 1967. Here's what the US provided Israel, in the course of a month:

Consequently, at least 100 F-4 Phantom II fighters were sent to Israel under Nickel Grass,[13] coming from the 4th Tactical Fighter Wing, the 33d Tactical Fighter Wing and the 57th Fighter Weapons Wing.[14] They were flown to Lod, where American pilots were swapped for their Israeli counterparts. After the replacement of USAF insignia with IAF insignia if needed, the planes were refueled and ordered to the front, often taking to the air within hours of having arrived. Some aircraft came directly from the USAFE fleet and operated in USAF camouflage,[8] but with Israeli insignia, thus earning the Israeli nickname "Frog". Nine days after the initial attack, Israel launched counterattacks. Thirty-six A-4 Skyhawks from U.S. stocks, staging from Lajes were refueled by SAC KC-135A tankers from Pease Air Force Base, New Hampshire and U.S. Navy tankers from the USS John F. Kennedy west of the Straits of Gibraltar. They then flew on to the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt southeast of Sicily where they stayed overnight, then continued on to Israel refueling once more from tankers launched from the USS Independence south of Crete.[15] Twelve C-130E Hercules transports were also transferred to Israel, the first of the type to be delivered to the IAF.[16]

Whereas Ukraine is fighting a Great Power it has *never* defeated in the modern era. My goal here is to cut through the PR flackery and get at the most likely outcome, given the measly Western support hyped up as Lend Lease* that is a tiny fraction of the real thing. At this moment, it's not looking good for Ukraine. Here's what a Ukrainian official had to say about his nation's artillery, of which there were 1500 pieces (as compared to the 100+ being provided by the West) when war broke out:

“This is an artillery war now,” said Vadym Skibitsky, deputy head of Ukraine’s military intelligence. The frontlines were now where the future would be decided, he told the Guardian, “and we are losing in terms of artillery”.

“Everything now depends on what [the west] gives us,” said Skibitsky. “Ukraine has one artillery piece to 10 to 15 Russian artillery pieces. Our western partners have given us about 10% of what they have.”

Ukraine is using 5,000 to 6,000 artillery rounds a day, according to Skibitsky. “We have almost used up all of our [artillery] ammunition and are now using 155-calibre Nato standard shells,” he said of the ammunition that is fired from artillery pieces.

They are running out of ammo for their 1500 non-NATO caliber artillery pieces. Unless the West starts providing 152mm shells for those artillery pieces, the deluge, in reverse, is about to begin. 100+ 155mm howitzers are not a substitute for 1500 152mm & up howitzers.

Now, if the administration had immediately started taking F-16's out of mothballs and training the Ukrainians on how to fly and operate them in combat, in even a subdued version of Nickel Grass (call it Nickel Dime), Ukrainians would likely be doing a number on the Russian presence in Ukraine instead of retreating, and taking up to 200 KIA a day.

Up to 200 Ukrainian soldiers are being killed every day in Russia's military onslaught, according to an adviser to Ukraine's president - and only more and more advanced Western weaponry will turn back the Russian offensive, reduce the casualties and force Moscow to the negotiating table.

When Nixon kicked off Nickel Grass, he mentioned no dollar amounts. He simply provided large amounts of late model weaponry. This administration keeps talking dollars that sound misleadingly large because it is sending minimal amounts of equipment. The idea that we can send Ukraine less equipment than we sent Israel to defeat its Arab neighbors is simply absurd. Ukraine is less competent than the Israelis. The Russians are more competent than the Arabs.

* Lend Lease was a thing of wonder. The only connection between the current aid to Ukraine and Lend Lease is the destination - Uncle Sam is once again sending aid to Eastern Europe. If even 1,000 tanks had been dispatched to Ukraine, the Russians would be cooling their heels over the border in Russia proper. Over 4 years during WWII, the US provided the following items to the Russians:

People talk about blowback in Afghanistan. WWII US aid to the Russians not only helped the Russians win - it literally kept them alive. The Russians repaid that aid by sending copious amounts of equipment to North Korea and North Vietnam, helping to kill a cumulative 100,000 GI's.

Soviet dictator Josef Stalin raised a toast to the Lend-Lease program at the November 1943 Tehran conference with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt.

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

Nikita Khrushchev offered the same opinion.

"If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war," he wrote in his memoirs. "One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."


13 posted on 06/13/2022 9:23:20 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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To: Zhang Fei

Biden has slow-walked aid to Ukraine since day one. Before Trump the Dems scene non-lethal aid like MREs and helmets. As usual the dems have no energy and initiative in anything.


17 posted on 06/13/2022 9:41:54 PM PDT by Monterrosa-24 (To the barricades !!!)
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To: Zhang Fei

YOU ARE TOTALLY CORRECT.
The world has learned, what U.S. citizens have known, NOT to trust Biden!

IMO [little media coverage]
1a- Biden has continuously sabotaged Ukraine with unfulfilled financial military ‘promised’ support.
1b- Biden tried to lure President Zelensky to leave Ukraine for his personal safety.
1c- President Biden suggested Ukraine would have to cede part of its territory to Russia to end Putin’s invasion.
1d- The U.S. slow walks funds & military aid.

2a- I believe that the U.S. Military is in control of our government. The Pentagon has Biden on a short leash & will NOT comply with either Biden or actions of Congress.

2b- “While the Pentagon is happy to talk about the dollar values of the munitions and other military materiel it is sending to Ukraine by the planeload, other than Javelin tank-killer missiles, it won’t say what other lethal capabilities it’s providing.”

i.e. A three-way fighter-jet deal to bolster Ukraine’s defenses against Russia is dead.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/10/poland-fighter-jet-deal-ukraine-russia-00016038

QUESTIOB: Has the U.S. become a territory of China in a new world order? China buys U.S. farms, rent U.S. ports to obstruct & bottleneck the supply chain.


21 posted on 06/13/2022 10:06:06 PM PDT by UMCRevMom@aol.com (et, so p )
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To: Zhang Fei

Just to let you know there are several items in the news today showing the Ukrainians advancing and making some unexpected river crossings to attack Soviet positions.

The Soviet offensive is failing and the Ukrainians are retaking territory.


39 posted on 06/14/2022 8:09:50 AM PDT by MercyFlush (☭☭☭ Soviet Russia must be destroyed. ☭☭☭)
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To: Zhang Fei; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Arthur Wildfire! March; Berosus; Bockscar; BraveMan; ...
Thanks Zhang Fei.

44 posted on 06/14/2022 11:58:31 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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To: Zhang Fei

“Our western partners have given us about 10% of what they have.”

We’re not your partners.


52 posted on 06/14/2022 9:19:42 PM PDT by Jim Noble (I’ve stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains)
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