Posted on 06/10/2022 12:20:11 AM PDT by dennisw
BobL, please read what Putin’s statements were before he
invaded the Ukraine. It addressed taking back lands
supposedly taken from it. It addressed him being like
Peter the Great.
You guys fell for his bull stuff propaganda hook line and
sinker.
People fell for Hitler’s bull stuff too at first.
You guys need to wake the hell up.
.
Oh PLEASE. Give it up Mad Vlad.
Russia has no power to do any of that as your decrepit and pathetic “military” now shows in Ukraine. You couldn’t take Gotland Island.
But this does show what kind of country Russia has always been. Invading, attacking, and robbing from others for centuries.
Absolutely agree!
Thanks.
This has been a tough topic for a while. Hopefully Putin’s
own comments will help clear things up.
None of us like what the Left is doing in our nation or
around the world. That doesn’t mean that tyrants should
be given free reign to do as they please.
This doesn’t seem obvious to others, but I hope they begin
to see the truth in it.
I appreciate the note.
Peter the Great is a tyrant now?
Peter I is one of the most important leaders in Western history, turning Russia from a backwards medieval fiefdom into a true European power. He is one of the most respected figures in Russian history and remains beloved by the Russian people.
“BobL, please read what Putin’s statements were before he
invaded the Ukraine. It addressed taking back lands
supposedly taken from it. It addressed him being like
Peter the Great.”
Even if true, then why did the West make it VERY EASY to justify, at least for those who read news other than what the Western Media pushes.
For example, if Ukraine had agreed to the Minsk Agreements, basically locking in the status quo, then I’d probably support Ukraine, or at least not be so anti-Ukraine.
The meatballs used to be good and then they took out the horse meat.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/02/25/the-untold-story-of-the-ikea-meatball-scandal-is-that-swedes-love-horse-meat/
What do you mean, even if true?
That won’t fly any longer.
This came out of a Moscow paper, the government controls.
I’m not familiar with the Minsk Agreements, but how does that
impact the sovereignty of the Ukraine and it’s assets?
Hi.
Someone should tell Vlad his invasion of the Ukraine ain’t going so well. And that he doesn’t need to step on his dick again so soon.
5.56mm
“I’m not familiar with the Minsk Agreements, but how does that impact the sovereignty of the Ukraine and it’s assets?”
Best that you read up on this (unless it’s now censored), basically Ukraine agreed to NOT treat their Russian-speakers like garbage. Ukraine then acted like the agreement never happened.
So, unlike the US, Russia cares about its stranded people, and if Ukraine wasn’t willing to protect them, then Russia would...which leads today. If the US and Europe had told Ukraine to abide by Minsk, they would have abided and no war, but they had BIGGER PLANS, which was to “weaken Russia” (Blinken), or “take-out Putin” (Rubio and others), and so here we are.
All that was needed was the West not wanting this war, but, like I said above, the West had reasons for making this situation go hot.
The sad thing is that Putin literally WANTED to join the West - he asked to join NATO, but was rejected - likely because he wouldn’t agree to be another puppet of the EU and US - he wanted to run his country by Russian values (such as not grooming kids), and that was a bridge too far for the US and EU, as Hungary has been learning for the past few years, as they too are trying to protect their kids from grooming.
BobL, I’m not sure if you grasp why Russia wanted to be in
NATO, and what that really meant.
It had nothing to do with him wanting to be a part of the
West.
Who was NATO formed to protect against?
That was a master move by Putin. Here was an organization
designed to protect against his nation, and he wanted to
become a member.
What if he had been a member now? Can you see what that
would have done to NATO?
That manifesto of his was been on his mind for a long long
time, returning the old territories to Russia. He has
intended to do it for a long time, and now he’s trying to
make it happen before he moves on after death.
Russia is not led by men that plan on leaving power any time
soon. Elections are held, but Putin remained in power, for
decades.
Does that sound like a normal Western nation’s process?
He can’t join, because nations run by strong men are
thuggish nations.
I don’t have it in for Putin. If he doesn’t invade other
nations and Russia wants him as leader, it’s their choice.
None the less, reality is reality.
“Here was an organization
designed to protect against his nation, and he wanted to
become a member.”
Do you have a link to that? NATO was designed to protect against the Soviet Union, and the larger Warsaw Bloc, but I don’t believe they EVER stated that they existed to protect against Russia. That’s why Trump wanted it broken up (but lost, hence the Ukraine War).
Trump didn’t want NATO broken up.
He tossed out a lot of rhetoric to get the nations in line
to raise their participation with promised contributions.
It worked. It also got them to pay more attention to
their deterrent forces.
I have advocated for the United States to hold summits with
Putin over time. It would have made him look like a world
leader to the folks back home. It would have fed his ego.
He would have come away with a few trinkets here an there.
Clinton didn’t do it. Bush didn’t. Obama didn’t. Trump
wanted to, but with the “Russia Russia Russia” thing going
on, he simply couldn’t.
That’s one of the byproducts of what the Left in the
United States ushered in.
We could have developed closer ties to Russia, but no it
was important to the Democrats to destroy Trump first.
Yes, you are right. NATO was designed to counter the old
USSR. None the less, people just weren’t real comfortable
with Russia anyway. There was just this gut feeling that
things would turn south again.
Now it could be said what is going on now is a self-
fulfilling prophecy, the fact is that Russia did got south.
NATO has had to see Russia as a Strong man run nation
again.
Russia likes long term strong men leaders. They grew
used to it, and they seem to prefer it.
“It worked. It also got them to pay more attention to
their deterrent forces.”
From what I remember, they were too barely laughing at Trump and listening instead to Obama to pay attention to anything else. It only changed AFTER Russia go involved in the Ukraine Civil War.
“Yes, you are right. NATO was designed to counter the old
USSR. None the less, people just weren’t real comfortable
with Russia anyway. There was just this gut feeling that
things would turn south again.”
I admit the same feelings, particularly right after the Cold War ended, and then with Putin for a while. But as I watched Russia disavow Communism and stop threatening the West (other than make it clear that they opposed NATO expansion), my view changed. And then, as you mentioned, when the Democrats and Neocons made Russia ENEMY NUMBER ONE just because they outlawed Grooming of children, then I was through being suspicious of Russia.
Putin’s annexation of Crimea, with virtually all its 2.4 million people being supporters of Russia, made perfect sense to me, considering they were looked at by the new Ukrainian government pretty much the same way Jews were looked at when Hitler first took power in Germany. The problem for the Jews, of course, was that they didn’t have a big brother to rescue them - the people in Crimea did.
I can’t tell you what was on the mind of every person leading
the Nations of Europe, but it was not the Russian invasion of
the Ukraine in March to December of 2014.
Trump was not inaugurated until 2017, and the leaders of
Europe had scoffed at him and this statements. Then they
found out he wasn’t kidding, and all of a sudden they
admitted they had slacked off, and would do better.
Have they followed through? Honestly I don’t know. It
looked pretty good for a while. Not sure if it
continued.
The reaction was to him and his efforts, because Russia
was a factor when they were trying to laugh him off. That
didn’t change before they changed their tune.
I’m not convinced that number of people in Crimea wanted
Russia to take control again. These people lived under a
very oppressive leadership for 70 years (not sure if they
did so during the whole USSR period, but that’s a decent
working estimate)
Think of an election process that would make what the
Democrats in 2020 did, look like child’s play. The USSR
used to hold elections with over 90-95% voting for the
leaders the party wanted.
Do you honestly think the vote in Crimea was a fair and
balanced reflection of what the people there actually
wanted? I don’t.
I can’t say if the referendum (or whatever the proper
term would be), would have passed anyway, but I don’t
think there has ever been an election were over 90% of
the people are of the same mind.
If something goes as high as 65/35, I think you’re
chances of dealing with real voter opinion is a
realistic view. As it goes above that, look out.
“Do you honestly think the vote in Crimea was a fair and balanced reflection of what the people there actually
wanted? I don’t.
I can’t say if the referendum (or whatever the proper term would be), would have passed anyway, but I don’t think there has ever been an election were over 90% of the people are of the same mind.”
Goes back to my German Jew analogy - if the Jews could have voted to remove themselves from Hitler’s rule shortly after he took power, I have no doubt that 90% would have. If you research what the Russian-speaking people in Crimea were thinking when the hostile government took over in Ukraine, you’d likely conclude that even 90% may have been low - they were literally scared to death.
Other areas of Ukraine had more of a mix of Ukrainians and Russians, so 90% was less likely (unless the Ukrainians boycotted elections, knowing they would lose). It’s a very linear scale in that country, going from nearly pure-Russian speakers in the very far East (and Crimea) to nearly pure-Ukrainian speakers in the West. The question was where to draw the line between a bilingual society in the East and a Ukrainian only society in the West. Before the war, that line was very far east, but since then, it has been moving further and further West and unless the Neocons finally call the war off, there may be little or nothing left of a Ukrainian-only country - regardless of how mad the West get about it, since Russia now gets to draw that line.
Extermination vs “not liking” the new government?
You would equate those as equal drivers?
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