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Biden Forest Plan Stirs Dispute Over What Counts as "Old"
23ABC ^ | May 19, 2022

Posted on 05/19/2022 5:53:22 PM PDT by nickcarraway

President Joe Biden’s order to protect the nation’s oldest woodlands is raising a simple but vexing question: When does a forest grow old?

The answer could affect millions of acres of federally-managed forests where environmentalists want logging restricted as climate change, wildfires and other problems devastate vast forests.

Scientists say there's no simple formula for what's old — in part because growth rates among species can vary greatly.

(Excerpt) Read more at turnto23.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: biden; forests; trees
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This headline can be understood in two ways.
1 posted on 05/19/2022 5:53:22 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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Old growth forests though pretty are not healthy, and are a net emitter of CO2 for those who are gasophobic


2 posted on 05/19/2022 5:56:24 PM PDT by dsrtsage ( Complexity is just simple lacking imagination)
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To: nickcarraway

There are thousands of acres of forest land planted, managed, and owned by Weyerhaeuser in Washington state. Some of these forest are approaching 100 years old.

I’m waiting for the environmental whackos to protest the logging of these forests.


3 posted on 05/19/2022 6:05:09 PM PDT by shotgun
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To: dsrtsage

If they are not healthy how do they get to “old”?


4 posted on 05/19/2022 6:08:42 PM PDT by 1FreeAmerican
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To: 1FreeAmerican

Same way people get to old folks homes.


5 posted on 05/19/2022 6:10:39 PM PDT by dsrtsage ( Complexity is just simple lacking imagination)
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To: nickcarraway
Dispute Over What Counts as "Old"

Is they on FR?

6 posted on 05/19/2022 6:13:48 PM PDT by Pollard (Don't ask if there's a conspiracy. If you're not in one, you need to start one. CA Fitts)
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To: dsrtsage

No matter how “old” a forest is, it will stay healthy as long as the dead trees are taken out-both tallest trees and understory bushes/trees and other undergrowth that is dead-that also helps keep forest fires from ramping through the dead, dry stuff and causing the massive damage you see in states like Cali, where the green loons don’t want anything cut...


7 posted on 05/19/2022 6:16:01 PM PDT by Texan5 ("You've got to saddle up your boys, you've got to draw a hard line"...)
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To: dsrtsage

Most people here never end up in one of those places-unless they move to Florida and like to play a lot of golf...


8 posted on 05/19/2022 6:19:36 PM PDT by Texan5 ("You've got to saddle up your boys, you've got to draw a hard line"...)
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To: nickcarraway

Traditional definition of OLD forest is a forest which ceases to substantially grow. The trees are not getting taller, while the crowns may be getting wider.
The tree death rate in old forest is increasing.
The Co2 absorption is getting smaller and maybe even negative.
The forest is getting sick.

That’s the problem. The old forest looks nice, there are no small trees, but few big trees which are killing all the others. It is nice to walk though and admire. That’s why the environmentalists love old forests and Biden is trying to protect them.

However this forest is basically equivalent of nursing home. Bunch of old trees waiting for a death. Even the wood of old forest is usually not very good.


9 posted on 05/19/2022 6:42:05 PM PDT by AZJeep (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0AHQkryIIs)
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To: dsrtsage

True, old growth doesn’t grow much. Just kind of holds its own. The primary value of old growth is aesthetic. People find the towering trees and park like undergrowth pleasing. Not so good for wildlife though. Of course if they find an ivory billed woodpecker in some ancient tree in a Tennessee swamp I’ll take it back.


10 posted on 05/19/2022 7:20:46 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard ( Resist the narrative.)
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To: AZJeep

Very interesting/informative, thx.


11 posted on 05/19/2022 7:29:36 PM PDT by one guy in new jersey
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To: Texan5

That’s what forest fires are for


12 posted on 05/19/2022 7:30:39 PM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: Texan5

Also, insect infested and viral/bacterial diseased growth must be culled before it spreads in such near-monoculture environments. All forests are not as ‘diverse’ as one would think. (I’ve been a horticulturalist, botanist and entomologist, for the past 37yrs, and have seen our national/state/local forests in decline for the past 25-30ys.)


13 posted on 05/19/2022 7:37:33 PM PDT by Carriage Hill (A society grows great when old men plant trees, in whose shade they know they will never sit.)
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To: shotgun

Those aren’t forests - they’re tree farms.


14 posted on 05/19/2022 7:37:50 PM PDT by stormer
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To: nickcarraway

Old growth forests are not sick. They are healthy. The death of some large trees is essential to the new life of many forms of life. Many species only exist in old growth forests. However, what constitutes old growth varies, depending not just upon the age but the species composition.

Different forest types have different “fire cycles”—in other words, how long between an expected major fire episode. It may as little as ten to twenty years in something like a table mountain pine forest, or a minimum of 400 years in something like a beech-maple forest. The ones with the lengthier fire cycles are very important for the existence of certain species. An old-growth table mountain pine forest—or even an old growth loblolly pine or northern red oak forest—is not nearly as important as a mesic hardwood forest dominated by such things as american beech, basswood, sugar maple, etc.

Rare species are typically found in rare habitats. If they were adaptable to common habitats, they would be common. In most areas of the country, more than 25% of the species are only found in areas that occupy far less than 1% of the land area. Certain old growth forest types are essential for the survival of many species. Others—not so much. The vast majority of forests that have been protected for a century in our national parks are not critical in themselves to the survival of many species. A very small percentage, however, are essential.


15 posted on 05/19/2022 7:38:02 PM PDT by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: Engraved-on-His-hands

Excellent post. Thank you.


16 posted on 05/19/2022 8:01:35 PM PDT by neverevergiveup
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To: nickcarraway

They could start by ceasing to set runaway wildfires like the Calf Canyon Fire in NM. “Prescribed” burn, now burning for 6 weeks and 300K acres. Brought to us by the folks that almost burned down Los Alamos.


17 posted on 05/19/2022 8:09:04 PM PDT by RedElement
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To: Nifster

That is why the forest service does controlled burns-takes out the dead understory-but you still need to take down the dead/dying tall trees as well-especially the cedars/junipers and pine-those conifers have a lot of resin/sap-they will act like a torch to light every tree, bush-house and barn, too-on fire. It is wasteful to let all that wood burn up unused for anything-trees that are past their prime or dead standing are good lumber as long as they don’t have beetles/rot. Out here, there are free meetings at community centers where ag and forest service people tell/show you how to recognize dying/dead trees and understory and properly cut them out, how to properly space trees, trim them, etc-it has really cut down on the out-of-control forest fires the last 8-10 years in this rural area...


18 posted on 05/20/2022 12:37:15 PM PDT by Texan5 ("You've got to saddle up your boys, you've got to draw a hard line"...)
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To: Texan5

Agreed

I’ve seen a fire crown. It is terrifying


19 posted on 05/20/2022 12:57:02 PM PDT by Nifster (I see puppy dogs in the clouds)
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To: Nifster

There was one within a couple of miles of here a few years ago, and I hope never to be that close again-started by a resident burning trash when there was a burn ban in effect-the wind took it from barely visible to a raging inferno within a matter of minutes, but the VFD had been called when it was first seen and was already on the way with every firetruck they had, so it was out before it could do more damage than take out a stretch of woods near the river...


20 posted on 05/20/2022 1:28:24 PM PDT by Texan5 ("You've got to saddle up your boys, you've got to draw a hard line"...)
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