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Russia's tanks in Ukraine have a 'jack-in-the-box' design flaw. And the West has known about it since the Gulf war
CNN ^ | 28-APR-2022 | Brad Lendon

Posted on 04/28/2022 8:48:08 AM PDT by SpeedyInTexas

Russian tanks with their tops blown off are just the latest sign that Russia's invasion of Ukraine isn't going to plan.

Hundreds of Russian tanks are thought to have been destroyed since Moscow launched its offensive, with British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace on Monday estimating it had lost as many as 580.

But Moscow's problems go beyond the sheer number of tanks it has lost. Experts say battlefield images show Russian tanks are suffering from a defect that Western militaries have known about for decades and refer to as the "jack-in-the-box effect." Moscow, they say, should have seen the problem coming.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Germany; News/Current Events; Russia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: 40percentabandoned; 40percentkilled; autoloader; benwallace; bradlendon; chechens; chechnya; deathcabforpootie; deathcabforpooty; germany; goodriddance; isaidbudlight; pedosforputin; putinlovertrollsonfr; putinsbuttboys; putinworshippers; russia; russianaggression; scottritter; t72; t90; tank; tanks; ukraine; unitedkingdom; zottherussiantrolls
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To: SpeedyInTexas
The T-80, another Russian tank seeing action in the Ukraine invasion, has a similar missile loading system.

Does the author understand that there's a difference between what is commonly called a "missile" and what is called a shell?

21 posted on 04/28/2022 9:06:03 AM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: MercyFlush

Even the Germans acknowledged that for overall battlefield performance, the T-34 was the best fighting vehicle deployed. Does anyone know whatever happened to the man who designed that tank. Was he killed in the Stalinist purges?


22 posted on 04/28/2022 9:07:33 AM PDT by allendale
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To: BiglyCommentary
They have an autoloader in these tanks. It gives the tanks a higher rate of fire. The stowage for ammunition means that when a top attack missile penetrates the turret the rod usually hits some of the ammo which may cause a catastrophic situation. Same thing is true for side attacks but a little less likely. Reactive armor may help a lot but a HEAT round that penetrates the side will likely kill one or both crew members in the turret - there is very little room in there.

This was a design choice they made many, many years ago - that a higher rate of fire and lower profile would prevail over the increase in vulnerability. But with top attack weapons this vulnerability greatly increases. You probably saw pictures of tanks that went into Ukraine with cages on top of some of them, a field expedient to try to stop the top attack ATGMs, but it appears not to have been very effective.

23 posted on 04/28/2022 9:07:35 AM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
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To: SpeedyInTexas

Isn’t it so nice of cnn to tell the whole world of the defect so that putin can simply start the redesign process now?

It reminds me of the written press of WWII showing images and pointing out that the B-17 had design flaws so that enemies knew how to attack B-17s.

The press in any venue are the scourge of the world!


24 posted on 04/28/2022 9:07:49 AM PDT by spel_grammer_an_punct_polise (Land is simply a place I visit until I can return to the sea.)
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To: SpeedyInTexas

Mother russia has lots of sons.


25 posted on 04/28/2022 9:07:57 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: SpeedyInTexas

Saw plenty of ammo racked Iraqi tanks in 2003.


26 posted on 04/28/2022 9:08:03 AM PDT by 31R1O
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To: Striperman

I’d say it’s well known.


27 posted on 04/28/2022 9:08:36 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Jewbacca
LOL! You could apply for a job writing some of the stuff that's been showing up lately on FR. Have been active here since 1998 and have never seen so much personal invective thrown around. I certainly don't espouse censorship, but it's sad to see a decline in reasoned disagreement.

The other day I posted a comment suggesting what would be a poetic way for Putin to shuffle off his mortal coil, Stalin style, and was immediately called a Neocon. So, comparing Vladimir Vladimirovich to the last guy who massacred Ukrainians by the truckload makes me a latter-day Gen. Jack D. Ripper, ready to bomb the Russkies and protect our precious bodily fluids. Got it.

28 posted on 04/28/2022 9:09:26 AM PDT by katana
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

The tank can fire both shells (APFSDS, HE) and a missile.


29 posted on 04/28/2022 9:10:25 AM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
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To: allendale

They copied the basics of the T-34 from Walter Christie. An American inventor who was rejected by the US army.


30 posted on 04/28/2022 9:10:34 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Manly Warrior

Funny how the M1 Abrams doesn’t have that problm.


31 posted on 04/28/2022 9:11:12 AM PDT by DownInFlames (P)
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To: BiglyCommentary

“Stunning that the Ruskies carried this flaw into each next generation. What on earth were they thinking?”

Russian design philosophy has always been aimed at cost and producibility. The idea was to overwhelm the enemy. Casualties don’t matter. The lack of concern for casualties is because of the political system. Russia has three hundred thousand anti-riot police. If you’re not worried about what the great unwashed masses think about the way you are conducting a war, then you aren’t concerned with casualties. As the article stated and I can confirm, having worked on the Abrams and a lot of other armored vehicle designs, the number one concern for every design feature is, what does it do to crew survivability? Even just taking the practical consideration, highly trained tank crews can’t be produced by just a few weeks of training and reading the course material. The US had an investment in every service person, and they protect that investment. But the number one thing protecting the lives of US service members is that we elect our leaders.


32 posted on 04/28/2022 9:12:10 AM PDT by Gen.Blather (Wait! I said that out loud. Sorry.)
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To: spel_grammer_an_punct_polise
Isn’t it so nice of cnn to tell the whole world of the defect so that putin can simply start the redesign process now?

It was not a defect in the sense that they did not know it. It was a deliberate design tradeoff.

33 posted on 04/28/2022 9:12:16 AM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
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To: Bruce Campbells Chin

“Of course, the Ukrainians are basically driving the same tanks”

For now. The rumor mill is indicating that the US is slyly transferring 200-250 functional M1A1 tanks (with assorted upgrades) to Ukraine via Poland. This transfer is likely taking place right now.

I have not heard any indication that the Ukies would receive any M1A2 tanks.

The Ukies are also supposed to be getting an unknown number of LAV-25 combat vehicles. I have not heard any mention of them receiving any Brads.


34 posted on 04/28/2022 9:12:32 AM PDT by MercyFlush (The Soviet Empire is right now doing a dead cat bounce.)
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35 posted on 04/28/2022 9:12:43 AM PDT by mylife (It looks just like a telefunken U47... (===)
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To: katana

If you root for the firefighting crews to put out fires in California because you care about people and their homes and businesses, the Pooties accuse you of being a Newsome stooge just because he is leading the efforts as the governor.


36 posted on 04/28/2022 9:14:54 AM PDT by BiglyCommentary
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To: Gen.Blather

“highly trained tank crews can’t be produced by just a few weeks of training and reading the course material.”

Yea that very important point was made at the end of the article.


37 posted on 04/28/2022 9:18:29 AM PDT by BiglyCommentary
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To: GOP_Party_Animal; SpeedyInTexas

“Does the author understand that there’s a difference between what is commonly called a “missile” and what is called a shell?”

These days the lines have blurred on that topic as many cannon-launched ‘shells’ have guidance features and are able to autonomously maneuver like a platform launched missile.


38 posted on 04/28/2022 9:18:47 AM PDT by MercyFlush (The Soviet Empire is right now doing a dead cat bounce.)
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To: SpeedyInTexas
The Russians are incompetent. In retrospect is a wonder that anyone was ever really afraid of them and their conventional capabilities.
39 posted on 04/28/2022 9:18:58 AM PDT by amnestynone (We are asked by people who do not tolerate us to tolerate the intolerable in the name of tolerance.)
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To: Seruzawa

In British parlance I think the dash indicates whether or not you might be queer.


40 posted on 04/28/2022 9:21:46 AM PDT by DesertRhino (Dogs are called man's best friend. Moslems hate dogs. Add it up..)
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