You’re still going on about the Budapest Memorandum, after all the stuff I told you before about how
***You are no expert on this stuff, there is little reason to listen to what you say and take it as gospel.
- It’s not a treaty;
***It is an accession to a Treaty. Asked & Answered
https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/4044080/posts?page=142#142
- It has no enforcement mechanisms beyond going to the UN Security Council;
***One of the signatories to the treaty INVADED the other. They called it a “special military exercise” claiming not to be in violation. Hence, we could call it a “special military exercise” to not-invade Ukraine and hold the parties to the provisions in the agreement/treaty that “respect the borders & sovereignty” of Ukraine. What is sauce for the we-didn’t-invade pootypoot goose is sauce for the we-didn’t-invade USA Budapest Amendment keeping gander.
- No penalties for violations;
***Actually, invading the other country isn’t even a violation, to hear pootypoot say it. So there’s no penalty for us to go in and set up an emBASEee of American Land right along the Russian border. From my perspective we should send volunteer American forces in a Lend Lease program where we fight for American emBASEee territory in Ukraine. I call it the emBASEee strategee
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/4050958/posts
and the Lend Leasee strategee, the BBudapest AAgreement LLend LLease approach which would take BALLs.
- Includes provisions regarding non-interference on not just military matters, but also political and economic ones (which America was guilty of violating on the latter two);
***Well, if America is guilty of it then Vlad could not-invade us and retake Alaska so we better be clear about what it means to “respect” current borders from that Agreement.
- And that *all* subsequent American administrations did not consider the memo binding whatsoever on the matter of whether military intervention was required?
***I kinda like this approach, we could just say “Screw Jimmah Cartah” and retake the Panama Canal, retake all the territory we gained in our war with Mexico in 1898, etc.
That’s the nature of Realpolitik, and the fiction of “international law”: Great Powers uphold agreements and treaties if they believe the terms are in their national interests;
***Oh, it is in our national interest to get nuclear nonproliferation correct, that’s for sure.
otherwise, they think nothing of violating them and telling everyone else to pound sand.
***Yeah huh, and when all these islamofascist countries build their nukes just because they saw how the Ukes were treated when they gave up theirs, can we come back to appeasers like you to hold you accountable? Doubtful. Just like it’s doubtful that your position is at all tenable over this set of issues.
The Budapest Memorandum, in the long term, turned out to be nothing more than political PR
***Well that PR will bite us in the ass if we don’t put a lid on the nuclear proliferation that it is engendering.
(because the Ukrainians had no political capital to resist either America or Russia; Russia went along because it meant getting all of the nukes they had given to Ukraine during the USSR days back; and America did so because nuclear non-proliferation was still the name of the game).
***(what’s with all these ()parentheticals) They’re useless. Poor writing. Nuclear nonproliferation is STILL the name of the game.
To say the Budapest Memorandum is equivalent to a mutual defense pact is simply not rooted in reality
***When did I say it’s a mutual defense pact? I didn’t. Hence, that is a straw argument. What I have been saying is that we have moral obligations under that agreement and everyone else in the world can see it except for appeasers here in America.
(notwithstanding the fact that the amount of assistance provided to the Ukraine thus far has devolved this conflict into yet another US-Russia proxy war).
***(take a writing class)
We have no business getting involved in a longstanding
***Not really long standing. Ras Putin wasn’t even interested in eastern Ukraine until oil & gas were discovered there.
ethnic feud
***It’s more about oil than ethnicity.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/4050958/posts
Using language preference as a pretense to invade is what Hitler did in Sudetenland and appeasers have never learnt that lesson.
between two Eastern European nations;
***Our prez SIGNED that sovereignty agreement. When a prez signs a document, he represents us. When UltraSonic7 signs a document, he only represents himself. That’s why Adam caused all creation to fall when he bit off the apple rather than Eve, because Adam represented humanity and Eve didn’t.
not when we don’t even have our own house in order.
***There you go again, right alongside everyone else that’s using our own border as an excuse not to do the right thing.
The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons is separate from the Budapest Memorandum. They are not one and the same.
One of the signatories to the treaty INVADED the other.
And again, what does the Memorandum call for? Going to the UN Security Council. And that's only *if* nuclear weapons were used against a non-nuclear state. Don't blame me for the Memo being toothless.
From my perspective we should send volunteer American forces in a Lend Lease program where we fight for American emBASEee territory in Ukraine. I call it the emBASEee strategee and the Lend Leasee strategee, the BBudapest AAgreement LLend LLease approach which would take BALLs.
Cute. Go ahead and see if your Congressman will bring it up for a vote. It's not like we have more pressing domestic problems.
Well, if America is guilty of it then Vlad could not-invade us and retake Alaska so we better be clear about what it means to “respect” current borders from that Agreement. If Vlad used nuclear weapons against Alaska, then the Memo wouldn't even apply, seeing as how America isn't a non-nuclear state. But that's irrelevant to the current topic, because Alaska *isn't Ukraine.*
I kinda like this approach, we could just say “Screw Jimmah Cartah” and retake the Panama Canal, retake all the territory we gained in our war with Mexico in 1898, etc.
Not even in the same league categorically, since the 1977 Panama Canal Treaties were both ratified by the US Senate (but I'm sure you knew that).
Yeah huh, and when all these islamofascist countries build their nukes just because they saw how the Ukes were treated when they gave up theirs, can we come back to appeasers like you to hold you accountable? Doubtful. Just like it’s doubtful that your position is at all tenable over this set of issues.
Given the (literally) gay ideology America as a country is exporting all over the world, we're not on any ground to morally lecture anyone. Maybe we should get our own house in order before getting involved in military conflicts on the other side of the world?
Well that PR will bite us in the ass if we don’t put a lid on the nuclear proliferation that it is engendering...Nuclear nonproliferation is STILL the name of the game.
That's funny, coming from Mr. "Give the Ukes back their Nukes."
*(what’s with all these ()parentheticals) They’re useless. Poor writing...(take a writing class)
Utter nitpicking and irrelevant; the use of parentheses is a normal part of grammar, given they included supplemental information for the corresponding sentence. Besides, this is just a political message board; given your 'colorful' language, you're in no position to demand pristine writing precision from anyone.
Not really long standing.
It's Eastern Europe. Putin's geopolitical calculus aside, there are LOTS of longstanding ethnic tensions between lots of people; all sorts of propaganda posters - old and new - involving Ukrainians and Russians only cement that underlying reality.
Our prez SIGNED that sovereignty agreement. When a prez signs a document, he represents us.
Not if he doesn't follow the proper procedure to get it ratified like our constitutional documents explicitly call for. Nor if the document being signed is as toothless as the Budapest Memo was.
There you go again, right alongside everyone else that’s using our own border as an excuse not to do the right thing.
And I highly disagree with the notion that getting militarily involved in Ukraine v. Russia is, in fact, the right thing to do. But why is it so absurd to point out dysfunctions in our own society that need dire attention as though it were a mere excuse and not a sign that our government's priorities are horribly skewed?
Here's a fact for you: President Trump fought for YEARS to get Congress to allot funding for the border wall, notwithstanding all of the political infighting that came with trying to increase defense focus on our porous southern border and the human costs that come with unchecked illegal immigration.
The same Congress thought nothing of allotting $14 billion for Ukraine in the $1.5 TRILLION spending package from just last month.