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To: caww; blackberry1; wardaddy
And more on the "Azov" Neo-Nazis

Because of its role in supporting Ukraine- it expanded into a regiment in the National Guard in Winter 2014. It was at this point that the Azov Batallion attempted to distance themselves from the extreme-far right wings in its ranks, as it wanted to appear as more of a military organization than a political group. This culminated in the leadership forces in the far right forming the National Corps political party.

It’s undeniable that paramilitary organisations like the above had acquired some legitimacy in being part of governmental forces. Two politicians of the National Corps including Bilitsky, founder of the Azov, had seats in the Ukrainian parliament (the Rada) until the 2019 snap elections -- they were voted out in 2019

There are other far right political groups like Svobada, the Right sector and Congress of Ukrainian nationalists but they collectively have only 1/450 seats in the Rada and the groups in total only got 2.5% of the popular vote during the 2019 presidential elections.

And remember that the politicians all try to sanitize their platform by omitting any of the more horrific details of their ideologies and talking about nationalism, foreign threats, right to self-defense, xenophobia such that the people who have supported them didn’t necessarily vote because they supporte their ideologies.

Is there a far right presence in Ukraine and support among its population? Sure, but it’s small.

Are there neo-nazi elements in some official military groups. Yes, for eg the Azov Batallion. For them war is an opportunity as it allows them to form well-organized military groups with some sense of legitimacy. They committed several atrocities during the 2014 invasion and foreign scholars and the Freedom House has made remarks on this- but there is no evidence that their activities as of recent are anything like what Russian state media suggest is happening in the Donbas.

Of course there are large causalities - 3500 in 8 years -- among civilians in the past decade but not from targeting civilian establishments or civilians in particular.

These far right groups are not liked by the overwhelmingly majority of the Ukrainian people but are tolerated because they’re willing to fight for and defend Ukraine and its sovereignty. As long as they don’t commit any atrocities, I think the people for the most part seem not to care- they should to avoid the growth of neo-Nazi ideology but their almost complete lack of political influence and the relatively small presence in the military makes them not really a threat.

,b> Russian state media trying to peddle information that neo-Nazi groups have significant political power in parliament, that several atrocities are still being committed in the Donbas by them exclusively or in large proportion are flat out lying. They have no evidence of their political power or such a high scale of extrajudicial killings and war crimes today.

Not to mention the DNR and LNR separatist regions in the Donbas are fascist states with low human rights scores and reports of high numbers of rape, murder and torture.

In fact the minister Avakov who was one of the strong supporting political figures for groups like Azov was dismissed a couple of years ago. The parliament also passed a bill making hate crimes against Jews have established financial punishments and prison sentences on this Feb 19.

It was to be signed by the Ukrainian President- but the bill is probably in limbo now for obvious reasons. There are things we genuinely have to care about such as far-right groups registering as election monitors and further involving themselves in their ‘law and order’ agenda but it hardly is a threat of the scale suggested by Russian state media

This is actually a carefully crafted piece of Russian propaganda that looks ridiculous at face level, then you seem truths entwined in the details and they escalate by giving a very descriptive narrative with hyperbole and omissions about the scale of those activities that causes you to lose sight of the overall picture. You have to research in depth a series of events over a decade to understand the full picture.

It convinces you the more you look into the details but your first impression is right, it is ridiculous. Because de-nazifying a country with 1/450 seats in its parliament held by far right politicians, a couple of legitimized paramilitary organisations expanded into regiments that toned down its political rhetoric and atrocities, and a small presence of neo-nazi supporters, barely even quantifying half a percent, is hardly a valid reason to stage a full invasion of a country and overthrow its government.

It’s simple to just ask Ukrainian people what they believe, especially when they have free access to the Internet, and see that their politics align with their politicians. After all the current president’s new centrist party did win most of the seats in the 2019 snap election, an election which attracted global interest. The separatist regions of the DNR and LNR are totalitarian under the rule of separatists, as shown in the Freedom House report, and do not accept Ukrainian representation anyway so I don’t see the neo-nazis being able to influence them since there are no free elections there.

And all of this still doesn’t refute the main point that you do no attempt to invade a nation and depose its government because of the efforts of a relatively powerless and small group. It’s like burning down a house to get rid of a couple of cobwebs and some spiders.

70 posted on 04/04/2022 4:06:53 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Frankly Cronos I don’t need to be schooled on Azov in Ukraine......many articles and investigations over the ‘years’ about their activities and presence in Ukraine has been made aware - and that Ukraine is a gathering place they go to from other parts of the world. They have their own agenda for Ukraine.


88 posted on 04/04/2022 10:48:51 AM PDT by caww ( )
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