How Not To Think About Ukraine

The American Conservative ^ | February 28, 2022 | SOHRAB AHMARI

[AndyJackson]

A lot of us are being accused of treason for asking hard questions about the missteps of the West leading up to this crisis. As the author states, things are complicated and there are many examples where oversimplification has led to enormous policy disasters.

[Dogbert41]

bump for later

[dp0622]

I’m lucky. I didn’t think about Ukraine at all today until I got on FR just now.

The folks here who are posting nonsensical and fake victories on the part of the Ukraine army can knock themselves out.

As Ivan Drago said “you will lose”.

I hope things work out for the Ukrainian folks.

But they ####ed up. They listened to Bill Clinton

Or they would have a bunch of nuclear missiles.

AMAZING how you don’t read that anywhere.

I know what Putin is. If he invades a NATO country, whatever I thin of NATO at this point, we have to rock n roll.

Ukraine ain’t a nato country

We have no treaty

Our borders are catastrophic. So is our debt. So if inflation. So is crime, once again.

We were taken over in a COUP.

But we are supposed to worry about Ukraine.

The hypocrisy abounds.

Let’s clean our own home first.

[AndyJackson]

The hypocrisy abounds. Let’s clean our own home first.

It's so much more fun to fact check and debunk the people accusing you of hypocrisy and believing that you support democratic rights while seizing the bank accounts of folks who engage in genuine peaceful protest.

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

I notice that author didn't offer any opinions of their own about what we should be doing with respect to the current crisis. It's a rant devoid of any specifics. Maybe he's part of the "Blame America First" crowd, but again, tough to know because there's just an ambiguous comment that the situation is "complex."

I don't trust people who make arguments that long without actually saying anything.

[cdcdawg]

“The folks here who are posting nonsensical and fake victories on the part of the Ukraine army can knock themselves out.”

Many such cases. Very sad.

“But they ####ed up. They listened to Bill Clinton”

Elections had consequences, even back then and before.

“Our borders are catastrophic. So is our debt. So if inflation. So is crime, once again”

Truth!

“Let’s clean our own home first.”

Yes! America First!

All the other stuff you said, too. All of it was right on point.

[AndyJackson]

I think his view is clear enough in the last couple of sentences:

And we are once more touting our own mastery over events that are rather hard to master. The usual hawkish suspects are feeding the dream of a hopeless Ukrainian resistance. These figures are likely merely deepening the Ukrainian people’s pain, without altering the ultimate outcome of the conflict. And measures that could plausibly alter the outcome bear the unfortunate risk of bringing us close to the brink of all-out war with Moscow.

Perhaps that is what many Americans want. But those who are comfortable with the escalation cycle and think they’re prepared to accept the downsides might consider if they’re viewing events from deep inside an information trap.

I take this to mean that he advocated de-escalating and settling the crisis rather than pushing Ukrainians, however innocent or guilty, to the front to take the bullets for the arrogance of the hard-liner arm-chair generals

[wildcard_redneck]

Let’s win the civil wars here at home first before we try to clean up other countries across an ocean 5000 miles away.

[cdcdawg]

Exactly.

[eyeamok]

There’s a war in Ukraine?

[reasonisfaith]

Maybe the misstep was when the deep state set up shop in the Ukraine and thought they wouldn’t get caught. But they did get caught—with bioweapons labs, slush-fund money laundering and child sex trafficking.

[AndyJackson]

I think there were a whole lot of missteps, on top of the globalist mis-steps in the Middle East. I think tolerance for missteps stopped when WWIII broke out in a country most people can’t find on a map.

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

I think his view is clear enough in the last couple of sentences:

I don't think it is clear at all. He is stating his concerns, not stating with any clarity what specific actions he supports or opposes.

I take this to mean...

You wouldn't have to take anything to mean anything if the guy would simply get specific. Does he support economic sanctions? Does he support sharing intelligence? Does he support sending supplies? Does he support aiding Ukraine in any way at all??

We have no idea because he chose not to make his position clear despite the length of his article. He apparently thought it more important to talk about the Arab Spring, and post 9-11, and immigration, and Covid, than he did to provide a few specifics about the actual subject at hand.

People aren't vague unless it is deliberate.

[AndyJackson]

Let’s win the civil wars here at home first before we try to clean up other countries across an ocean 5000 miles away.

And just maybe if we could keep our grubby mitts off countries 5000 miles away the clean up wouldn't be so messy.

[Tupelo]

“Let’s win the civil wars here at home first before we try to clean up other countries across an ocean 5000 miles away.”

Best piece of advice I have seen for damn near a week.

I might add:
Clean up the civil wars in your political party. Both have some severe schisms; the Democrats just hide theirs better.

[reasonisfaith]

Once you make the misstep of child sex trafficking, like the globalists did in the Ukraine, the other ones start to pale.

[marktwain]

The specific response supported is:

Don't buy into emotional rants.

Don't accept emotional pictures meant to play us.

Don't accept there are easy answers.

Realize we have been played, repeatedly.

Realize those who are playing us, have false views of reality.

[Alberta's Child]

Just when sobriety, responsibility, probity, and diplomatic skill are most needful, our pundits and policymakers offer the opposite: trembling emotion, cheap propaganda, wild fantasies, a refusal to dialogue and de-escalate.

The COVID fiasco demonstrated quite clearly that sobriety, responsibility and probity are non-existent in about 90% of this country’s population and almost all of its political leaders.

[MNJohnnie]

I see a lot of mindless bile spewing and insults being screamed at domestic political opponents. I am not seeing anything looking like a rational alternative response from the Right.

Everyone knows the Left and the Right hate each other. That no reason for the Right to go bat crap crazy in knee jerk opposition simply because the Left is in power in DC/ That acting like the Left always does. It sickening when they do it, It is equally sick when we do it,

The West is not engaging in active military operations. It use to be this response was what "Conservatives" wanted. They wanted other people to fight their own wars. Now they got one and their new standard is everyone should slavishly surrender to Putin's thuggishness instead. The West is giving support to the Ukraine's and applying their economic and political tools in response to an illegal act of aggression by Putin's regime.

If the Right opposes that, they need to come up with a rational adult alternative rather then just publishing these sort of bile laced tirades because they hate the people running DC.

Rather then mindless spew bile because of domestic political difference, Conservatives need to stop acting like Leftists and present a rational alternative response

[AndyJackson]

Different people can read this differently.