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To: elpadre

The Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba, and we totally freaked out.

NATO tries to expand into Ukraine, Russia freaks out and we think they are over-reacting?

This is a double standard. The western powers are causing the problem here.


6 posted on 02/18/2022 7:50:02 PM PST by ClearCase_guy ("If you see something, say something"? I see people dying from vaccines.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

NATO didn’t try to expand into Ukraine. Ukraine expressed interest in joining. Big difference.

NATO already includes half a dozen countries with borders with Russia.

Cuba was a de facto member of the Warsaw Pact, 100 miles from Florida.

We aren’t putting nukes in Ukraine, even if they join NATO - they are nuke free since they gained independence. Nor in Poland, Estonia, Latvia, etc. Those countries just want security from the Russians who have already started grabbing territory, again.

This is simply Russian neo-imperialism.


11 posted on 02/18/2022 8:37:40 PM PST by calenel (Tree of Liberty is thirsty.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

One way or another the elites and dems will get the ww3 they’ve been craving for some time now.


20 posted on 02/19/2022 4:04:16 AM PST by Tom Tetroxide
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To: ClearCase_guy
" The Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba, and we totally freaked out. NATO tries to expand into Ukraine, Russia freaks out and we think they are over-reacting? This is a double standard. The western powers are causing the problem here. "

No, this is too much like the liberal argument that since Israel and the and has nukes then so should Iran etc. Unlike Putin, the US has not sought to conquer and take away countries independence for perhaps about 100 years, but has spend billions fighting proxy wars against Soviets and now Putin (Iran, Syria) and in aid to such countries as Iraq and Afghanistan and in alliance building (and US reached $637 million to Ukraine in 2020) against Russia (yet, despite sanctions, Russia receives an average of $274,780,483 in foreign aid from the US per year, and once one of the biggest recipients of US foreign aid, receiving around $1.5 billion annually from 2005 to 2008m much for disarmament, plus $163,725,255 to Georgia; $124,103,154 to Turkey; and Bosnia and Herzegovina receives an average of $58,567,551) whereas the Soviet Union sought to conquer and take away countries independence (even as by puppetry) by nature, and Putin longs for that glory, and in Russia even outlaws any evangelism by any means except by his state church.

Meaning without the threat of US intervention Russia would expand to capture NATO countries and more, while without the threat of Russia and China the US would need only be taking action against militaristic Islam, and significantly reduce its military spending, which it did after the fall of the Soviet Union.

However, that does not mean the US military would not look for practice, and it seems to me the exclusion of Russia in the Kosovo intervention as well as the expansion of NATO - which meant more US money*- when Russia was weak was not wise, and has provided a pretext for Putin's push into the West, including parts of South America. As was that Democracy was automatically going to work for corrupt atheistic and institutionalized religion Russia. Only when Russia under Putin began to seek to become a military threat could NATO expansion be justified, which I believe Putin would have done anyway. And to counter Putin's complain of the West expanding NATO when Russia was weak, it can point to the Soviets history (the demise of which Putin laments) and his constant chest-thumping and aid to Iran etc and alliance with China and military threat to Ukraine as justification NATO.

Only the naive would believe Communism as well as Putin does not seek oppressive world dominion by military coercion, even if the subjects were like the Amish (even more so). *a1997 Pentagon set the range [of NATO expansion] as between $27 billion and $35 billion over 10years; a 1996 RAND Corporation study, $17 billion to $82 billion; a USCongressional Budget Office (CBO) study, $21 billion to $125 billion (http://comw.org/pda/nato699.html)

List by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute
2022 Fact Sheet (for 2021)[1]
SIPRI Military Expenditure Database[5]
List by the International Institute for Strategic Studies
Top 15 Defence Budgets 2021
[6]
RankCountrySpending
(US$ bn)
% of GDP% of Global Spending

23 posted on 02/19/2022 5:08:49 AM PST by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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