Posted on 12/16/2021 10:18:06 PM PST by yesthatjallen
Western allies on Thursday rejected Russia's bid to thwart Kiev's NATO ambitions and urged Moscow to halt its military build-up along Ukraine's border and return to talks led by France and Germany.
European Union leaders, meeting in Brussels, insisted on "the urgent need for Russia to de-escalate tensions caused by the military build-up along its border with Ukraine and aggressive rhetoric".
Separately, NATO's members used similar language, rejecting "the false Russian claims of Ukrainian and NATO provocations" and urged Moscow to "immediately de-escalate, pursue diplomatic channels, and abide by its international commitments."
Both organisations, which share most of their member states, reiterated a threat to impose "massive consequences" on Moscow through sanctions, coordinated between European powers and Washington.
On Thursday, the EU leaders agreed to renew for six months existing economic sanctions imposed on Russia in 2014 in response to its annexation of Crimea, a Ukrainian region.
The US has used similar language of "massive" retaliation in the event of a Russian invasion while attempting to reach out to Moscow to defuse the situation.
SNIP
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
And Russia threatens to cut off natural gas to Western Eurpoe.
“internationally recognized borders”
In principle, borders are to be determined by the consent of the governed, not by outsiders. While there is a certain usefulness to internationally recognized borders, the consent of the governed should ultimately rule.
With regard to the borders of Ukraine, these were moved by the U.S.S.R. for various purposes. These purposes included administrative considerations and also getting a significant Russian minority into Ukraine to promote the gradual Russianization of the place. There is some legitimacy to questioning where the borders of the now sovereign state of Ukraine should be, relative to what was inherited from the Ukrainian S.S.R.
A plebiscite might be the best way forward.
In the meanwhile, the parties involved should recognize the current borders and respect the armistice line; i.e., the status quo, until the matter is resolved peacefully. There is A LOT to be gained from a peaceful resolution of this border issue. I would say Russia has interests in NATO not stationing offensive military capabilities in Ukraine and also in getting some recognition of claims it’s asserting in the Arctic Ocean. Clearing up these issues, Ukraine could be fast-tracked for the EU and NATO.
BTW The same principles hold true for Taiwan.
Ok. NATO armies threaten. EU armies threten.
Did not the almighty EU say not too long ago, that they wanted their own army to supplant NATO?
Ok. NATO armies threaten. EU armies threten.
Did not the almighty EU say not too long ago, that they wanted their own army to supplant NATO?
Ukraine was in invaded by Putin in 2014. The Russian war in southeastern Ukraine has continued non-stop with 14,000 dead and 1.5 million refugees. Putin now threatens a wider scale invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War
Every poll in Ukraine before the Putin invasion in 2014 showed Ukrainians wanted to remain united. Even Russian speakers. The only exception was Crimea.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/pg-2014-05-08-ukraine-russia-0-01/
False....Ukraine overthrew its elected government in Feb 2014 in a Western back coup hours after the embattled President had signed an agreement to hold early elections. In the absence of Constitutional order that followed his ouster, several eastern Ukraine oblasts chose self governance over tyranny. One of them, Crimea, took the additional legal step of voting to reincorporate itself with Russia and is no longer part of Ukraine. Reconciliation with the other separatist oblasts in Donbass, Luhansk, and Donetsk is supposed to be governed by the Minsk2 agreement...which the United States is not a party to and which the puppet regime in Kiev ignores.
At no point after the western backed coup did Russia "invade" Ukraine. Under a long standing lease agreement with the Constitutional government of Ukraine, Russia had troops stationed in Crimea where its Black Sea fleet is located. After the western backed coup, most of the Ukrainian military in Crimea also chose to affiliate with their Russian counterparts.
Russia supports the Eastern oblast separatist movements and has provided some unofficial direct military support along with a lot of humanitarian support, but nothing along the lines of what pantywaists like NATO General Breedlove and nutjobs like John McCain were ranting about at the time.
“And Russia threatens to cut off natural gas to Western Eurpoe.”
It’s December and Europe hasn’t bothered to fill their natural gas storage tanks. And soon, the IDIOTS at the EU are going to wish they never solved Global Warming...as it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Russians have some ‘technical difficulties’ in delivering their promised natural gas there. Perhaps some ‘Chechens’ will get blamed for blowing up a section of pipe...or something.
This isn’t our fight. They’ve been squabbling over there for the last 500 years and they’ll be squabbling for the next 500.
Nothing in Ukraine is worth a single drop of American blood.
There are no good guys in this mess.
L
I’d like to think the people exercising their natural right to self determination in the face of western backed tyranny are the good guys...but you’re right, its not our circus and not our monkeys.
There ain’t no Thomas Jefferson in the Ukraine.
L
I suspect you are correct both about eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Only Crimea and at most only the most eastern part of eastern Ukraine would have majorities wanting a return to Russia, prior to Putin’s intervention.
Plus, slicing those parts off would leave a robust pro-independence and pro-western majority in the remainder of Ukraine. We saw this in the most recent election, in which those places didn’t vote.
With green policies in place, the UK is reactivating diesel locomotives because there is a shortage of electricity.
I guess steam locomotives are next as they are running out of diesel.
Regular folks are supposed to burn their furniture for heating I guess.
After Ukraine bombed the East to dust and now proposing the laws stripping them of electoral rights and prosecuting 15% of the population for “collaboration” you shouldn’t expect pro-Ukrainian sentiments much.
The Donetsk region broke away from Ukraine right after Ukraine declared independence from Russia in November 1917 after the Bolshevik coup. So this is not new.
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