Tim Keller Says Biblical Moral Values Cannot Be Proven to Be True

https://reformationcharlotte.org ^ | April 7, 2020

[11th_VA]

Tim Keller has long been heralded as one of the most profound thought leaders in Reformed Christianity. An author of several books and a popular speaker in the Evangelical speaking circuit, Keller has been silently creeping his way in under a facade of a defender of the Christian faith all the while attempting to destroy it from within.

Tim Keller is a prime example of trading historical Christian thought and represents a wave of postmodern thinking that has so infected the Church...

Keller, who ironically believes we have an objective moral duty to advocate for such things as racial justice, now insists that moral values cannot be proven to be true...

(Quote at the link)

[wardaddy]

Who cares about these people?

[Secret Agent Man]

If that is what he’s saying, he’s correct.

Secular morals are not based on absolutes. They are based on subjective terms and beliefs, there is no absolute to point to to show/prove any ones’ secular morality is measurably better than any others.

[Stosh]

I think Dostoevsky may have looked into this matter a little more deeply: “If There Is No God, Everything Is Permitted” Fyodor Dostoevsky

[jonrick46]

Maybe Keller is trying to justify his extramarital affair.

[Wuli]

Human theologians, in any age, are not immune to all too
human temptation, and theological perversion, that can come with enjoying the applause of being popular, which may have no particular relevance with being right. The temptation and perversion comes in when the theologian no longer questions their own words that have won them so much applause, so they - the words - begin to be supported more by that applause than by introspection and spiritual questioning of the theologian.

In that realm. what is often the road to a theologian becoming popular is to simply be a “radical” thinker. Some argue that Yeshua was a “radical” in his day, but I believe Yehusua would say he was a “fundamentalist” telling those of his day that they ignored their own faith’s fundamentals, which He was telling them to return to.

[dadfly]

i went to the ref and didn’t see a quote.

anyway, the direct outcome of such a view is the denial of objectively good vs bad outcomes, given a voluntary choice of action by a conscious being.

so can we prove an outcome that was beneficial? that would be enough to disprove keller’s claim.

ex. is the physical suffering of an animal that is to be slaughtered for food, a good or a bad?

outcome 1: suffering followed by slaughter for food.

outcome 2: no suffering followed by slaughter for food.

i’m not going to argue all the objective verification here. i trust that we all could agree on the objective nature of the animal, measurable effects of suffering, the means slaughter and the effects of suffering on the food.

and of course a christian would argue that needless suffering in this case of an innocent animal is flat out wrong morally.

but it is also an objective fact that the “quality/desirability/marketablity” of the food/meat itself will be different if the animal is allowed to suffer. studies have been done.

also it is an objective fact that a suffering animal is a dangerous animal and prone to inflict damage and injury.

ok enough. i believe this example alone proves the keller conjecture wrong (if the headline is his conjecture). i have to credit CS Lewis, the problem of pain for sparking this particular proof by counter example in my mind.

of course many others similar objective examples could be constructed.

the only way keller could get around this proof, would then go on to deny the possibility objective facts. and then of course the laws of reason, etc. many have gone down this road leading to nihilism. he’s not the first.

[shanover]

Well stated

[CptnObvious]

Biblical Morals can be Proven by Good Statistics.

On millionaires, 86% are married, 65% are in their first marriage. 86% in statistics is a proof. When asked by Dave Ramsey in his Millionaire Theme Hour, what is the number one attribute the Millionaire would say, the number one that comes up is "Integrity".

When asked how much they gained by stealing it or cheating folks out of it. The reply is invariable "Zero" or "None".

When asked what was their method, most reply "regular deposits..." "over a long period of time" and the word "consistency" is mentioned a lot.

When asked whether they borrowed to make their Million(s), they all say they didn't borrow to invest and make it. And the one attribute they all say is that they abhor debt in one fashion or another.

I'll bet if Dave asked them to be honest and he got honest replies, over 90% would say they never cheated on their wives or husbands. And those 10% that say they did, did it early in the marriage and then became faithful to a fault. (That integrity theme again).

Oh, and that Statistic that 50% of marriages that fail in divorce, He blows that out of the water asserting it's true if you have radically different faiths, one wants children and the other doesn't, one is a pathological spender and the other is a penny pincher and their Parents and Friends say they SHOULD NOT GET MARRIED.

It is a wonder that 50% of such marriages would survive. But if you are on the same page on these things, the odds of marital success is over 90%. One would wish it were 100%, but there are no guarantees.

Oh, and when you get the snide reply that they had to be execs or doctors, say No! The number one career of a millionaire turns out to be TEACHER. On his show a significant number of them were FARMERS. I heard one that called in had been a SINGLE MOTHER and dug her way out of POVERTY.

Armed with the stats, one can Blow Tim Keller Away!

[yldstrk]

What is “reformed” Christianity?

[Darteaus94025]

“Thou shalt not murder” can’t be PROVEN as a true moral value to a prominent DhimmicRAT.

Well, that’s nothing new, right?

[chajin]

In this country, Presbyterian and RCA (Reformed Church in America), anyone who think Calvin is da bomb, as opposed to Luther, Wesley, Pope Francis, or any of a number of Metropolitans.

[CptnObvious]

What is “reformed” Christianity?

Great Question.

It is Christianity that is "Reformed" to the Holy Scriptures, the 66 books of the Bible. Over time, Christianity strayed from it's Bible.

Instead of Salvation by Faith upon Christ, it had become Salvation by Works (Self). Instead of the authority of the Scriptures, it became the authority of whatever the authorities said about the Scriptures. Etc. Etc.

It is attributed to one Monk named Luther. He was lamenting and crying over his sins which confounded him continually; he could get no rest. One day he opened the Scriptures and saw "The Righteous shall live by Faith" and that that Faith was upon Christ. He saw that his sins were upon Christ and had been paid in Full, once and for all time. The burden came off his back he said, and he felt freed.

He started studying the Scriptures in Light of "The Righteous shall live by Faith" and started asking questions. The replies he got were less than thrilling on the order of "you should be more penitent" and "follow the Traditions of the Church more".

He came to the conclusion, that the Scriptures were Authoritative and that the lay person (and not just the Church folks) should have them. This was strongly opposed.

He started a church formed upon the Authority of Scripture and this started spreading into other churches. He was called a Heretic (one who perverted the faith) and called before the authorities. Placing his hand on the Scriptures he said "Here I stand, I can stand on no other" and escaped with his life.

He did not want to create a major church split and for the Church to return to the authority of the Scriptures. But this was not to be.

More and more churches returned to the Apostles teaching and the authority of Scriptures just as Christ said "It stands Written".

So there is a divide, if you will, in Christianity with one side saying the Scriptures are Authoritative, and the other side says that Tradition is Authoritative... etc. etc.

Hope that helps.

[Jonty30]

If moral cannot be proven true, than I have no reason to exercise equality for my fellow man.

[Theophilus]

Keller obfuscates. It's impossible to understand what he's talking about. The whole statement is a tidal wave of ambiguities and assumptions.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The truth requires no "proof". We know the truth and supress it in unrightousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[RaceBannon]

horrible article, he provides no place to go to, no quotes on this topic, it is all these guys opinions.

[blackberry1]

Satan wrote the article. It’s his calling card. Strive and division in the body.....

[Dr. Ursus]

Buddhism without the cool robes!

[airdalechief]

In an article...

“He is a huckster, through and through, a charlatan who tells lies and smears his tribal enemies every chance he gets.”

“Sept 18, 2020 · Tim Keller, founder of The Gospel Coalition and pastor of Redeemer Christian Church in New York City has said that every white person is complicit in creating the narrative that black people are dangerous and that if you have white skin, you’re involved in injustice and are part of the problem.”

hmmm

[TalBlack]

The Jews.

The Torah is 5000 years old and has been conducted through Time unchanged and absolutely intact. Wrong doesn’t stand the test of time.

[RoosterRedux]

Here's Keller's statement. I can't see where he erred.

Keller is saying that "values" can't be proven. Isn't the very definition of "values" a matter of judgment...NOT empirical evidence.