Posted on 12/05/2020 5:58:58 AM PST by Kaslin
Elsie, Post #58:
Really ?
I pity them poor Germans, Spaniards, Chinese, Russians, and all the other languages that are spoken across the world, for not being able to get the true, pure translation rendered in the King's English.
Hold on, my FRiend and brother. It looks like what I wrote above was reassembled in your brain to mean something I did not say or even allude to. If you would take the time to read agaion carefully, and parse it the same way it was written, you will see that the KJV was translated in the language of the Engs for those that understand the Eng language. But the infallible plenarily inspired Holy Scriptures (from which the KJV was translated) were given by the Holy Spirit to men of old to be wriitn verbally by then, and written only in Hebrew, Aramaic, and the commonly spoken Greek of the time, as a gift to all mankind (whether they can read and understand the languages or not).
Therefore, your response to what I wrote was quite inappropriate.
But, going on with the thought, to read the Scriptures yourself, preserved in the language just as they were originally written, you must be adept in them; or else to have them translated into your language by someone who is adept both in the Scripture languages and your language. Then secondly, you must engage in finding their meaning by exegetical interpretation yourself under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or obtain an interpretation of the passage by a spiritually mature person having expertise with both the original languages and yours.
In this process, it is understood that even scholarly readers for whom the original language was their birth tongue cannot be expected to understand what they read unless they are born anew in the Spirit, and even then when some kind of spiritually maturity has been attained, and he/she/they are able to discern both good and evil.
That is why we appoint certain well-prepared men to explain the intent and use of the Scriptures to modify our behaviors so that not only we as believing individuals, but also the ways we behave are acceptable to God.
If a version purporting to be a Bible is designed to blend translation AND interpretation in the same passage, then it is no longer a Bible. It is just a narrative put together by other fallible humans, a narrative that is to an unacceptable degree unreliable and misleading, prone to create argumentation and divisions, regardless of what language it is written.
You are quite correct.
I noticed only AFTER I had posted my reply.
I immediately thought to ask the mod to remove it, but then Wondered what guessing about a removed reply would have done ;^)
So; I decided to let it stay and we could go from there.
I agree; and that is why I asked the question about the italicized words in the KJV.
It is an example to both of us that the writing, though the situation demands haste, is not always required. I need to make sure to allocate enough time for both reading, pondering, writing, and checking the copy before posting. Thanks for your patient response.
Knowing pretty much what your response is likely to be, I'm OK with your interaction, which is always thoughtful.
The italicised words in the KJV are there for the purpose of establishing literal equivalency, and the mode warns the reader that these helper terms are not in the original text. They are not there for the purpose of a dynamic equivalency. But the article for which you gave a link describes why this literary device was needed, how it developed, and the purpose it serves. and gives examples of how it is employed. That article underscores the care and diligence with which the KJV was constructed to serve the whole British Empire as its commonly shared text across all classes and levels of scholarship.
A good point. But I suppose my first cut would be: is it possible that The Shroud was made by the hand of man? After that, as you say, who knows?
I found THIS which explains a lot about the times, the men and the process(es) involved in creating the KJV.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvhist.html
Even the Mormon’s use the KJV to lay a foundation for justifying the lack of cureloms etal being found in the geological record:
https://www.ldsliving.com/The-Unicorn-in-the-Scriptures/s/80758
And managed to do so without even mentioning them!
probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.The Vulgate: rinoceros
The Greek OT: μονοκερως (mo-no-keh-rohss)
Jamieson, Fausset,Brown Commentary:
unicorn — Pliny [Natural History, 8.21], mentions such an animal; its figure is found depicted in the ruins of Persepolis. The Hebrew reem conveys the idea of loftiness and power (compare Ramah; Indian, Ram; Latin, Roma). The rhinoceros was perhaps the original type of the unicorn. The Arab rim is a two-horned animal. Sometimes “unicorn” or reem is a mere poetical symbol or abstraction; but the buffalo is the animal referred to here, from the contrast to the tame ox, used in ploughing (Job 39:10, Job 39:12).******
So, what is that all about? Romans? Bull-headed?
| Bible Research > English Versions > 20th Century > NIV > Preface |
Reproduced here is the 1984 Preface to the New International Version of the Bible.
The New International Version is a completely new translation of the Holy Bible made by over a hundred scholars working directly from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. It had its beginning in 1965 when, after several years of exploratory study by committees from the Christian Reformed Church and the National Association of Evangelicals, a group of scholars met at Palos Heights, Illinois, and concurred in the need for a new translation of the Bible in contemporary English. This group, though not made up of official church representatives, was transdenominational. Its conclusion was endorsed by a large number of leaders from the many denominations who met in Chicago in 1966.
Responsibility for the new version was delegated by the Palos Heights group to a self-governing body of fifteen, the Committee on Bible Translation, composed for the most part of Biblical scholars from colleges, universities and seminaries. In 1967 the New York Bible Society (now the International Bible Society) generously undertook the financial sponsorship of the project—a sponsorship that made it possible to enlist the help of many distinguished scholars. The fact that participants from the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand worked together gave the project its international scope. That they were from many denominations—including Anglican, Assemblies of God, Baptist, Brethren, Christian Reformed, Church of Christ, Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Wesleyan and other churches—helped to safeguard the translation from sectarian bias.
How it was made helps to give the New International Version its distinctiveness. The translation of each book was assigned to a group of scholars. Next, one of the Intermediate Editorial Committees revised the initial translation, with constant reference to the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Their work then went to one of the General Editorial Committees, which checked it in detail and made another thorough revision. This revision in turn was carefully reviewed by the Committee on Bible Translation, which made further changes and then released the final version for publication. In this way the entire Bible underwent three revisions, during each of which the translation was examined for its faithfulness to the original languages and for its English style.
All this involved many thousands of hours of research and discussion regarding the meaning of the texts and the precise way of putting them into English. It may well be that no other translation has been made by a more thorough process of review and revision from committee to committee than this one.
From the beginning of the project, the Committee on Bible Translation held to certain goals for the New International Version: that it would be an accurate translation and one that would have clarity and literary quality and so prove suitable for public and private reading, teaching, preaching, memorizing and liturgical use. The Committee also sought to preserve some measure of continuity with the long tradition of translating Scriptures into English.
In working toward these goals, the translators were united in their commitment to the authority and infallibility of the Bible as God’s Word in written form. They believe that it contains the divine answer to the deepest needs of humanity, that it sheds unique light on our path in a dark world, and that it sets forth the way to our eternal well-being.
The first concern of the translators has been the accuracy of the translation and its fidelity to the thought of the Biblical writers. They have weighed the significance of the lexical and grammatical details of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. At the same time, they have striven for more than a word-for-word translation. Because thought patterns and syntax differ from language to language, faithful communication of the meaning of the writers of the Bible demands frequent modifications in sentence structure and constant regard for the contextual meaning of words.
A sensitive feeling for style does not always accompany scholarship. Accordingly, the Committee on Bible Translation submitted the developing version to a number of stylistic consultants. Two of them read every book of both Old and New Testaments twice—once before and once after the last major revision—and made invaluable suggestions. Samples of the translation were tested for clarity and ease of reading by various kinds of people—young and old, highly educated and less well educated, ministers and laymen.
Concern for clear and natural English—that the New International Version should be idiomatic but not idiosyncratic, contemporary but not dated—motivated the translators and consultants. At the same time, they tried to reflect the differing styles of the Biblical writers. In view of the international use of English, the translators sought to avoid obvious Americanisms on the one hand and obvious Anglicisms on the other. A British edition reflects the comparatively few differences of significant idiom and spelling.
As for the traditional pronouns “thou” and “thine” in reference to the Deity, the translators judged that to use these archaisms (along with old verb forms such as “doest,” “wouldest” and “hadst”) would violate accuracy in translation. Neither Hebrew, Aramaic nor Greek uses special pronouns for the persons of the Godhead. A present translation is not enhanced by forms that in the time of the King James version were used in everyday speech, whether referring to God or man.
For the Old Testament the standard Hebrew text, the Masoretic Text as published in the latest editions of Biblia Hebraica, was used throughout. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain material bearing on an earlier stage of the Hebrew Text. They were consulted, as were the Samarian Pentateuch and the ancient scribal traditions relating to textual changes. Sometimes a variant Hebrew reading in the margin of the Masoretic text was followed instead of the text itself. Such instances, being variants within the Masoretic tradition, are not specified by footnotes. In rare cases, words in the consonantal text were divided differently from the way they appear in the Masoretic text. Footnotes indicate this. The translators also consulted the more important early versions—the Septuagint; Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion; the Vulgate; the Syriac Peshitta; the Targums; and for the Psalms the Juxta Hebraica of Jerome. Readings from these versions were occasionally followed where the Masoretic Text seemed doubtful and where accepted principles of textual criticism showed that one or more of these textual witnesses appeared to provide the correct reading. Such instances are footnoted. Sometimes vowel letters and vowel signs did not, in the judgment of the translators, represent the correct vowels for the original consonantal text. Accordingly some words were read with a different set of vowels. These instances are usually not indicated by footnotes.
The Greek text used in translating the New Testament was an eclectic one. No other piece of ancient literature has such an abundance of manuscript witnesses as does the New Testament. Where existing manuscripts differ, the translators made their choice of readings according to accepted principles of New Testament textual criticism. Footnotes call attention to places where there was uncertainty about what the original text was. The best current printed texts of the Greek New Testament were used.
There is a sense in which the work of translation is never wholly finished. This applies to all great literature and uniquely so to the Bible. In 1973 the New Testament in the New International Version was published. Since then, suggestions for corrections and revisions have been received from various sources. The Committee on Bible Translation carefully considered the suggestions and adopted a number of them. These were incorporated in the first printing of the entire Bible in 1978. Additional revisions were made by the Committee on Bible Translation in 1983 and appear in printings after that date.
As in other ancient documents, the precise meaning of the biblical texts is sometimes uncertain. This is more often the case with the Hebrew and Aramaic texts than with the Greek texts. Although archaeological and linguistic discoveries in this century aid in understanding difficult passages, some uncertainties remain. The more significant of these have been called to the reader’s attention in the footnotes.
In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “Lord” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “Lord,” for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign Lord.”
Because for most readers today the phrase “the Lord of hosts” and “God of hosts” have little meaning, this version renders them “the Lord Almighty” and “God Almighty.” These renderings convey the sense of the Hebrew, namely, “he who is sovereign over all the ‘hosts’ (powers) in heaven and on earth, especially over the ‘hosts’ (armies) of Israel.” For readers unacquainted with Hebrew this does not make clear the distinction between Sabaoth (“hosts” of “Almighty”) and Shaddai (which can also be translated “Almighty”), but the latter occurs infrequently and is always footnoted. When Adonai and YHWH Sabaoth occur together, they are rendered “the Lord, the Lord Almighty.”
As for other proper nouns, the familiar spellings of the King James Version are generally retained. Names traditionally spelled with “ch,” except where it is final, are usually spelled in this translation with “k” or “c,” since the biblical languages do not have the sound that “ch” frequently indicates in English—for example, in chant. For well known names such as Zechariah, however, the traditional spelling has been retained. Variation in the spelling of names in the original languages has usually not been indicated. Where a person or place has two or more different names in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek text, the more familiar one has generally been used, with footnotes where needed.
To achieve clarity the translators sometimes supplied words not in the original texts but required by the context. If there was uncertainty about such material, it is enclosed in brackets. Also for the sake of clarity or style, nouns, including some proper nouns, are sometimes substituted for pronouns, and vice-versa. And though the Hebrew writers often shifted back and forth between first, second and third personal pronouns without change of antecedent, this translation often makes them uniform, in accordance with English style and without the use of footnotes.
Poetical passages are printed as poetry, that is, with the indentation of lines and separate stanzas. These are generally designed to reflect the structure of Hebrew poetry. This poetry is normally characterized by parallelism in balanced lines. Most of the poetry of the Bible is in the Old Testament, and scholars differ regarding the scansion of Hebrew lines. The translators determined the stanza divisions for the most part by analysis of the subject matter. The stanzas therefore serve as poetic paragraphs.
As an aid to the reader, italicized sectional headings are inserted in most of the books. They are not to be regarded as part of the NIV text, are not for oral reading, and are not intended to dictate the interpretation of the sections they head.
The footnotes in this version are of several kinds, most of which need no explanation. Those giving alternative translation begin with “Or” and generally introduce the alternative with the last word preceding it in the text, except when it is a single-word alternative; in poetry quoted in a footnote a slant mark indicates a line division. Footnotes introduced by “Or” do not have uniform significance. In some cases two possible translations were considered to have about equal validity. In other cases, though the translators were convinced that the translation in the text was correct, they judged that another interpretation was possible and of sufficient importance to be represented in a footnote.
In the New Testament, footnotes that refer to uncertainty regarding the original text are introduced by “Some manuscripts” or similar expressions. In the Old Testament, evidence for the reading chosen is given first, and evidence for the alternative is added after a semicolon (for example: Septuagint; Hebrew father). In such notes the term “Hebrew” refers to the Masoretic text.
It should be noted that minerals, flora and fauna, architectural details, articles of clothing and jewelry, musical instruments and other articles cannot always be identified with precision. Also measures of capacity in the biblical period are particularly uncertain (see the table of weights and measures following the text).
Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals. Yet we are grateful to God for the extent to which he has enabled us to realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our colleagues to complete our task. We offer this version of the Bible to him in whose name and for whose glory it has been made. We pray that it will lead many into a better understanding of the Holy Scriptures and a fuller knowledge of Jesus Christ the incarnate Word, of whom the Scriptures so faithfully testify.
The Committee on Bible Translation
June 1978
(Revised August 1983)
| Bible Research > English Versions > 20th Century > NIV > Preface |
The link yields a 403 Forbidden, so who knows what awaits the inquisitive?
Hoax
Marino is a professional hoaxer
Works for me.
I’ve never seen a 403 error before.
https://www.ldsliving.com/The-Unicorn-in-the-Scriptures/s/80758
Thanks, that copy and paste worked as it should have.
That said, it appears the author is playing with the audience, but he does get around to a bottom line: “Unicorns are a mythical beast, no more real than dragons, which incidentally are also mentioned in the Bible (see Revelations). But what are we to make of this? With so many references to the creature, could the unicorn actually have existed?
Most experts say no, and they also say that the original manuscripts shouldn’t lead us to believe they did.”
I tried to look up Revelations and could find no such book. He doesn’t seem to take dragons very seriously either, so he is just letting his writing ability out on a fun run. LDS Living is what it is, not an official publication
Old article to boot, but I will pass it on to a friend who’s daughter loves unicorns.
I’ll wait for film at eleven, or one of the Trumpets, where all will be revealed.
Then again I might have to wait for Eternal History 101.
I would suspect that MOST folks think it's plural as well.
Just imagine the ones trying to lookup apockylips!
apockylips!
Good one.
ape-hock-ellipse
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